105 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Maybe I should start a new QQ thread.
It seems like MWO is only a fight between brawler or snipers

What about me?
You found me in a trooper Mech - at medium range - the first in the breach, the first that die. Because some one has to do the dirty job.
And I don't need more balanced weapons - I need more armor!

[Boris The Spider]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 November 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

So an Abrams should not be killing/destroying enemy/hard points from 2-4 miles away from the front? We should forward your brilliant military tactics to he top brass immediately!

Not sure how that even relates to my post Joseph, but if we are going to analogise with current military hardware and tactics, no you should not drive your Abrahms, alone, up a mountain into an area it can be harassed unchecked by enemy infantry, just because it has a big cannon on it, whilst leaving your Humvees to deal with an enemy tank column.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Hold it, hold it, hold it.....

I think the OP really wanted to know when being a Sniper style player in MWO will actually be a roll, which it currently isn't really a viable roll at the moment. If you stop and truly think about this for a minute you'd understand.

Current game play for a sniper build in the current meta is the PPC/AC5 and the rare Gauss build. The PPC/AC5 build is inappropriately called a sniper when in fact it's a Poptart. The Gauss builds are more sniper based as you have to stay at long range to be effective, use cover as much as possible, and try not to reveal your location for fear of being rushed and loosing the advantage of the Gauss.

snip·er (snpr)
n.
1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Pop-tart (Poppetus-Tartus)
n.
1. A person who jumps out from cover repeatedly to shoot at a target and does not stay concealed.
2. One who shoots at other people while jumping up and down from cover.

So the OP actually has a valid question since most of what you see is not the long range sniper, but the poptart. Also in the current game it is almost impossible to play a true sniper, sure you have some exceptions, but as a dedicated roll Snipers are not a viable roll in MWO. The argument could be made though that....You are in a mech stomping across a map trying to be sneaky and conceal yourself to be a sniper....what? Also when a sniper in MWO shoots you can see where it came from (Beam weapons, PPC, and even the Gauss have a trail or particle effect), when a real sniper takes his shot you don't see it and when you hear it....it's to late. So by the very nature of MWO the only weapon close to a sniper riffle is the Gauss and even on a good build it can not conceal itself long enough to get kill shots without being discovered.

[Joseph Mallan]

Boris The Spider, on 19 November 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Not sure how that even relates to my post Joseph, but if we are going to analogise with current military hardware and tactics, no you should not drive your Abrahms, alone, up a mountain into an area it can be harassed unchecked by enemy infantry, just because it has a big cannon on it, whilst leaving your Humvees to deal with an enemy tank column.

Fair. Even though I don't know many Generals who would consider risking a 4.3 Million dollar Tank for few 70,000 HumVees (1 Abrams >50 HumVees), Also again 2-4 mile Effective range on an Abrams means it does not need to be traveling WITH the HumVees to protect them You are thinking like a civilian not a General.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 November 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Viges]

NEVER. There is no "sniping" in MWO because you cant ( AND SHOULD NOT) kill any mech from 800+m in single (double) shot.

If that happens - this game may go to hell.

All you sniperboys return to play your cods and hawkens - PLEASE.

[Joseph Mallan]

Viges, on 19 November 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

NEVER. There is no "sniping" in MWO because you cant ( AND SHOULD NOT) kill any mech from 800+m in single (double) shot.

If that happens - this game may go to hell.

All you sniperboys return to play your cods and hawkens - PLEASE.

So being able to perform a MoS in a futuristic Combat game is bad! maybe some people need to check themselves. 800+m Should be hard to do and only the best should be able to do it. Why? Cause only the best CAN do it... Consistently. I Dropped Khan Ignotus in game Once(IIRC) with a snap head shot as he came around a Building. If it can be done at under 200 M it can be done at max effective range as well. IF you have the guns and the chops to get it done. I am as impressed as I am bummed when it happens, but I cannot fault a player for having that kind of aim, and I would not want to stop him/her from exercising his/her obvious skill.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 November 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 November 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

So an Abrams should not be killing/destroying enemy/hard points from 2-4 miles away from the front? We should forward your brilliant military tactics to he top brass immediately!

Spoiled! I'd have been a sniper if I had a scope during qualification! 7 of 10 rounds in just the head of the target you see in the Pict at 500m using iron sites!

I nailed all 10 at the 500

I did drop one at the rapid fire 300 though. I think they just missed it personally. How do you group the size of a spotter and drop one stray????

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 19 November 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I nailed all 10 at the 500

I did drop one at the rapid fire 300 though. I think they just missed it personally. How do you group the size of a spotter and drop one stray????

You will note I said 7 of 10 in the head. That doesn't mean I missed the rest

Bad power packing in the casing? Wind Gust? There are plenty of reasons/excuses for dropping one.

[Almond Brown]

Can you carry enough weapons with the ranged power to one shot (Head 18hp + internals) a Mech from 800m+? With drop off, only the erPPC retains it's full damage (10pts.) out to 800+. A head shot kill from 800+ sound more Luck then great shot?

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 19 November 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Can you carry enough weapons with the ranged power to one shot (Head 18hp + internals) a Mech from 800m+? With drop off, only the erPPC retains it's full damage (10pts.) out to 800+. A head shot kill from 800+ sound more Luck then great shot?

As does a Gauss So One Gauss and 2 ERPPC, or 2 Gauss and one ERPPC. Will do it just fine, And the Phract can do it either way.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 November 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Spoiled! I'd have been a sniper if I had a scope during qualification! 7 of 10 rounds in just the head of the target you see in the Pict at 500m using iron sites!

I can say that there were no scope for qualling as of '04. I seriously doubt much has changed in 9 years. You do set up some of the sighting equipment but you don't use it for the qualification.

Anyway, sniping in this game isn't what people want it to be cause one shot kills would be horrific versus ANY mech (its stupid against Locusts but its somewhat understandable). Plus, in this game, standing alone trying to snipe just opens you up for getting hammered by Jenners.

[Joseph Mallan]

Best answer to the argument I have seen yet Traug!

[Alistair Winter]

I personally would like to see sniping. But I think the reason we don't have sniping is because PGI doesn't know how to do it. I mean, they have to work with existing weapons, which means that you're talking about gauss rifles. You can't really snipe with an ER LL or an AC2, even though they have long range. And we're not talking about a single gauss rifle, because you can't really base a playing style around a single 15 ton weapon.

So we're looking at how to make the Jagermech and Cataphract with dual gauss more viable as a long range sniper, as opposed to a combat sniper or poptart. The answer is that you need to increase damage at long range and make the weapon even more useless at close range. The increased projectile speed and the charge mechanic was a step in the right direction. It would have to be more like that. And you'd also want a longer cooldown period, to force snipers to stay behind cover when not firing weapons, while making them very defenseless in a brawl when they can't slip behind cover while reloading.

At the moment, there is only 1 true sniper build in the game, and I haven't seen anyone except myself using it. It's the Cicada with ECM and Gauss, 40 rounds of ammo. It has stealth, long range and it's almost useless in a brawl, except against bad heavy / assault mech pilots. The only thing it lacks is the ability to take out lightly armoured targets in one shot. So you could say it's not really a true sniper. But screw you. It's a sniper.

[Trauglodyte]

Alistair Winter, on 19 November 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

I personally would like to see sniping. But I think the reason we don't have sniping is because PGI doesn't know how to do it. I mean, they have to work with existing weapons, which means that you're talking about gauss rifles. You can't really snipe with an ER LL or an AC2, even though they have long range. And we're not talking about a single gauss rifle, because you can't really base a playing style around a single 15 ton weapon.

So we're looking at how to make the Jagermech and Cataphract with dual gauss more viable as a long range sniper, as opposed to a combat sniper or poptart. The answer is that you need to increase damage at long range and make the weapon even more useless at close range. The increased projectile speed and the charge mechanic was a step in the right direction. It would have to be more like that. And you'd also want a longer cooldown period, to force snipers to stay behind cover when not firing weapons, while making them very defenseless in a brawl when they can't slip behind cover while reloading.

At the moment, there is only 1 true sniper build in the game, and I haven't seen anyone except myself using it. It's the Cicada with ECM and Gauss, 40 rounds of ammo. It has stealth, long range and it's almost useless in a brawl, except against bad heavy / assault mech pilots. The only thing it lacks is the ability to take out lightly armoured targets in one shot. So you could say it's not really a true sniper. But screw you. It's a sniper.

The problem, though, with what you're wanting, Alistair, is that you want to go against current game mechanics and basic physics. You can't have a weapon do more damage the further out it goes unless you're talking about a dual stage projectile and that just makes for a complicated weapon. And, with the 2xrange (energy) and 3xrange (ballistic), you're just opening yourself up to a weapon with such an extreme range that you'd be hitting from all sides of the map, unless they used the weird AC5 logic.

As for your concept of the Cicada, I toyed with it WAY back when but the lack of speed just made it it too dangerous. Yes, you can put the whoopin on someone at range but you're complete fodder. Though, that was back in the days of lag shielding single JJ Jenners so I didn't have the patience to keep up with it especially as that was pre-ECM days where the 1.5 tons would have gone to AMS that didn't work well. Yeah, 100kph is kind of fast and the ECM is nice but you're still risking a lot. You can do a 2x Gauss or 2x AC20 with no armor and a 100 STD engine if you're really ballsy.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 19 November 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Trauglodyte, on 19 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

The problem, though, with what you're wanting, Alistair, is that you want to go against current game mechanics and basic physics. You can't have a weapon do more damage the further out it goes unless you're talking about a dual stage projectile and that just makes for a complicated weapon. And, with the 2xrange (energy) and 3xrange (ballistic), you're just opening yourself up to a weapon with such an extreme range that you'd be hitting from all sides of the map, unless they used the weird AC5 logic.

No, I mean "more damage at long range than what we have right now". Not more damage the further out it goes. As an extreme example, imagine a gauss rifle doing 30 damage with a max range of 3000, but using a 3 second charging time and 10 second cooldown period. Very good at long range, but almost completely useless when you're getting swarmed.

Trauglodyte, on 19 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

As for your concept of the Cicada, I toyed with it WAY back when but the lack of speed just made it it too dangerous. Yes, you can put the whoopin on someone at range but you're complete fodder. Yeah, 100kph is kind of fast and the ECM is nice but you're still risking a lot. You can do a 2x Gauss or 2x AC20 with no armor and a 100 STD engine if you're really ballsy.

It'***** and miss, for sure. Speed isn't a big issue, as I try to stay in relative proximity to the main group anyway. Even at 170 kph, I wouldn't take this thing far from the main group, because it's so vulnerable against Jenners. But with a tiny profile, ECM and the very hard-to-see gauss projectiles, a lot of enemy mechs will ignore me if they have bigger mechs available. The Atlas and Jagermech always seems a better target than that Cicada lurking in the bushes, hardly firing at all. And I don't think they even realize I have a gauss rifle most of the time.

[Victor Morson]

Twin Gauss never died.

[Jaguar Prime]

I see a lot of people are getting the impression that I want to one shot mechs from extremely long range...... Um no. I just want to able to take a lance of 800m+ snipers and be just as effective as a lance of Brawlers.

[Alistair Winter]

Victor Morson, on 19 November 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Twin Gauss never died.

Agreed. But it's used at relative close range a lot of the time. Not a lot of people make an effort to stay at long range, out of reach of their enemies. So many gaussers are happy at 500 meters.

[Trauglodyte]

Alistair Winter, on 19 November 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

No, I mean "more damage at long range than what we have right now". Not more damage the further out it goes. As an extreme example, imagine a gauss rifle doing 30 damage with a max range of 3000, but using a 3 second charging time and 10 second cooldown period. Very good at long range, but almost completely useless when you're getting swarmed.

I see what you're saying. Honestly, I wonder if this might happen when they start allowing the Arrow IV or Long Toms on mechs. You wouldn't be able to aim any of those systems at specific locations but being able to use them as ghetto ground targetted damage could be scary.

Quote

It'***** and miss, for sure. Speed isn't a big issue, as I try to stay in relative proximity to the main group anyway. Even at 170 kph, I wouldn't take this thing far from the main group, because it's so vulnerable against Jenners. But with a tiny profile, ECM and the very hard-to-see gauss projectiles, a lot of enemy mechs will ignore me if they have bigger mechs available. The Atlas and Jagermech always seems a better target than that Cicada lurking in the bushes, hardly firing at all. And I don't think they even realize I have a gauss rifle most of the time.

I like how the game edited your "It'*****.." as if you called it ****, instead. Anyway, yes, your logic is sound and your application and use of it is right. I'd maybe still use it only in the confines of friends that know how to protect teammates while it would pretty much ensure your death in PUGs (damned Jenners).

Jaguar Prime, on 19 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I see a lot of people are getting the impression that I want to one shot mechs from extremely long range...... Um no. I just want to able to take a lance of 800m+ snipers and be just as effective as a lance of Brawlers.

I would say that this is already possible. The thing is that in order to have 4 mechs dedicated only to effective sniping (ie, not slamming away mindlessly with long ranged weapons doing nothing), you've got to have 8 badass front line mechs maintaining battleground integrity and forcing the enemy into your lanes of fire while being smart enough not to get blown to Hell and back. On top of that, as a group of snipers, you've got to have the where withall to know where to be, when to move, and where to expect the enemy to maximize your potential all while trying to avoid the groups that would eat you alive (and having 3 other teammates being smart enough to target said Lights). It is plausable but very hard to enact.

[Razuko]

Only way being a true sniper would be acceptable in this game imo is if you can only shoot while standing still with some sort of player activated planted-stabilizing mechanism, have limited loadout and tonnage.

That in mind... Sitting in the back like a coward is not fun. It's not fun for your team mates who are now soaking up more damage from the enemy because you are off hiding in the back rather than mixing it up with them and helping to spread the damage around. While you're in your tree stand the enemy will be picking off your team one by one. Leaving only the uber special sniper squad to poo themselves when the enemy runs up on them.