31 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

Thinking AC20 Ghost heat needs to go from 400% to 800%.

It is so silly easy to use dual AC20's that it is absurd, even chain fire is simple. But at least it's better that the constant influx of Dual 20 Jagers that Alpha all day long.

Even to this day it seems like twin 20's is the only viable way to brawl which is disappointing as hell.

[Cactus In The Rear]

It isnt the only viable way,but it is more powerful than anything else (and less creative) in a brawl. Just goes to show that even when PGI whacks something with the nerf bat they dont kill it.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I just say no to nerfherding. It whack-a-moles more than you want. You might as well take anything else using an AC20 out of the game while you are at it. The AC20 hunchies for starters. It would blow up at first alpha with only 1 AC20 and its lasers at that point.

[General Taskeen]

Carrioncrows I think you know the underlying issues.

[Carrioncrows]

General Taskeen, on 16 November 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Carrioncrows I think you know the underlying issues.

Yes, but those are not going away anytime soon.

There are no plans on the table to go in and do fix convergence issue, or COD Moving = less accuracy, or the hundreds of other suggestions that are better than ghost heat.

So tuning what we have is in order.

[Sandpit]

So I guess the King Crab is going to be silly?

I see an AC40 Jagger, I prioritize and shoot from 500+ meters. Problem solved

If I happen to be in a brawler I prioritize and shred their paper armor.

[Carrioncrows]

Sandpit, on 17 November 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

So I guess the King Crab is going to be silly?

I see an AC40 Jagger, I prioritize and shoot from 500+ meters. Problem solved

If I happen to be in a brawler I prioritize and shred their paper armor.

So on Apsen you have no issue with dual ac20 jagers and can snipe them down.

Noted.

All other maps I can easily get within 300m of the enemy unmolested and then if you are alone you are dead, even 2v1 I would give even odds to killing the both of you. Assault mech or not. I don't miss, and I know lots of other players that simply don't miss either.

On chainfire, I don't miss.

But at least it takes the easy mode of the equation.

[Karl Streiger]

Sandpit, on 17 November 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

So I guess the King Crab is going to be silly?

I see an AC40 Jagger, I prioritize and shoot from 500+ meters. Problem solved

If I happen to be in a brawler I prioritize and shred their paper armor.

Ah of course there is a- "Its simple - shot the ears of" statement.

Carrioncrows, on 10 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Thinking AC20 Ghost heat needs to go from 400% to 800%.

what about reducing RoF - and ammunition storrage?

5shots a ton and 1 shot for 7 or 8 seconds, instead of ghost heat
Or what about a global increase of the Ghost Heat timer to 1 - 1.5secs?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 November 2013 - 04:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 18 November 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

So on Apsen you have no issue with dual ac20 jagers and can snipe them down.

Noted.

All other maps I can easily get within 300m of the enemy unmolested and then if you are alone you are dead, even 2v1 I would give even odds to killing the both of you. Assault mech or not. I don't miss, and I know lots of other players that simply don't miss either.

On chainfire, I don't miss.

But at least it takes the easy mode of the equation.

IDK, I want to agree, but.....

The realities are that AC40 jagers don't get used in comp play for a reason... the minmax tradeoff is too severe.

Run an XL, and you are a glass cannon. Run a standard, and you are a turret. I can rock the heck out of an AC40 jager, probably close to 400-500 matches in them. But it is way limited. I can usually guarantee a couple of kills, but if end up with 5-6 kills or more, I know I dropped against noobs.

All in all I rather run my dual 10 build because it is far more versatile (or my twin UAC). And I usually have the torso off of a BoomJager with it before he gets to optimal range.

BoomJagers are the WW2 Tank Destroyers of MWO. If you get in front of one, up close, it's gonna hurt. A lot. But they are so dang easy to kill, too, and so lacking in flexibility.

Karl Streiger, on 18 November 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Ah of course there is a- "Its simple - shot the ears of" statement.





what about reducing RoF - and ammunition storrage?

5shots a ton and 1 shot for 7 or 8 seconds, instead of ghost heat
Or what about a global increase of the Ghost Heat timer to 1 - 1.5secs?

totally disagree with RoF. You give up a LOT for those BFG. MAking them slower makes them a death sentence. Ammo nerf, or the GH Timer might work though.

[Carrioncrows]

Karl Streiger, on 18 November 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Ah of course there is a- "Its simple - shot the ears of" statement.





what about reducing RoF - and ammunition storrage?

5shots a ton and 1 shot for 7 or 8 seconds, instead of ghost heat
Or what about a global increase of the Ghost Heat timer to 1 - 1.5secs?

Like I said there are LOTS of better ways to go about handling these kind of issues.

Maybe you dual fire both cannons but it increases your reload time by additional 50-100%. Instead of Ghost heat you have Ghost Reload time that allows alpha's but significantly punishes people who Drop everything in one go.

There are a ton of great ideas on how to handle some of the more insane builds outside of Ghost heat.

But right now I am trying to work within the painted lines for the short term.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 18 November 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 18 November 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

Like I said there are LOTS of better ways to go about handling these kind of issues.

Maybe you dual fire both cannons but it increases your reload time by additional 50-100%. Instead of Ghost heat you have Ghost Reload time that allows alpha's but significantly pushes people who Drop everything in one go.

There are a ton of great ideas on how to handle some of the more insane builds outside of Ghost heat.

But right now I am trying to worth within the painted lines for the short term.

Mech Thongs have gone to his head!!! Now he is on a crusade to fix the game! MAdness!

[Carrioncrows]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 November 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

IDK, I want to agree, but.....

The realities are that AC40 jagers don't get used in comp play for a reason... the minmax tradeoff is too severe.

This is less to do with the Boom Jager being a bad choice as it is the Meta being dominated by long range AC fire.

Wind back a few months when SRM's did their job,brawling was much more prolific and Er PPC's and Gauss where everywhere.

Yes ERPPC's and Gauss were devistating but so was the counter, using brawlers to get up in their grill where the heavy heat of ERPPC's would limit their options.

Now it's all long ranged AC fire and there is no reason to close the distance.

Even now there are 3 types of Jagers out there.

Quad AC5
Trip UAC5
Dual 20's.

You see a Jager dollars to doughnuts they are one of the above builds.

Yes it's mean, it's brutal and in skilled hands even with the above change will still be devastating. Maybe part of the reason 20 Jagers are the defacto brawling mech IS because srm's are {Scrap} right now and nothing else is out there. But I would at least like to make em work for a kill.

The Alpha penalty for twin 20's isn't severe enough IMHO.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 18 November 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

This is less to do with the Boom Jager being a bad choice as it is the Meta being dominated by long range AC fire.

Wind back a few months when SRM's did their job,brawling was much more prolific and Er PPC's and Gauss where everywhere.

Yes ERPPC's and Gauss were devistating but so was the counter, using brawlers to get up in their grill where the heavy heat of ERPPC's would limit their options.

Now it's all long ranged AC fire and there is no reason to close the distance.

Even now there are 3 types of Jagers out there.

Quad AC5
Trip UAC5
Dual 20's.

You see a Jager dollars to doughnuts they are one of the above builds.

Yes it's mean, it's brutal and in skilled hands even with the above change will still be devastating. Maybe part of the reason 20 Jagers are the defacto brawling mech IS because srm's are {Scrap} right now and nothing else is out there. But I would at least like to make em work for a kill.

The Alpha penalty for twin 20's isn't severe enough IMHO.

I'll be sticking to 2 AC10, 2-4 medium lasers.

AC20 Jagers = 1 trick pony (it is a really cool trick though)
3x UAC = Bad choice. All the flaws of the TripUAC Ilya, only 2/3 the ammo
3x AC5 = Same problem as the UAC, no jmas, just nowhere near enough ammo.

Good builds that last the whole match, and can respond at any range?

2 Large Laser, 2 AC5 (best on firebrand)
2 AC 10, 2-4 Medium Lasers
2 UC5, 4 MG, 2 Medium Laser
2 AC5, 2 AC2, 2 Medium Laser. (yup, the stock weapons. Just add ammo and DHS.... and armor)

or if you just want to be annoying as heck
2 LB-X, 4 MG, 2 Flamers.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Sandpit, on 17 November 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

So I guess the King Crab is going to be silly?

I see an AC40 Jagger, I prioritize and shoot from 500+ meters. Problem solved

If I happen to be in a brawler I prioritize and shred their paper armor.

Don't know if my Elo changed or anything but lately there have been 3-5 ac/40s in some matches. Taking out one is painfull enough for a brawler and maybe surviving the second but when two more come around the hill it becomes an OMFG moment and the fun is removed from the drop.

Karl Streiger, on 18 November 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Ah of course there is a- "Its simple - shot the ears of" statement.





what about reducing RoF - and ammunition storrage?

5shots a ton and 1 shot for 7 or 8 seconds, instead of ghost heat
Or what about a global increase of the Ghost Heat timer to 1 - 1.5secs?

RoF would be my vote, maybe just a small tweek, how about making it so they can't be group fired, that they have to be chain fired.

Also how about putting a Jamming Mechanic in the game for all AC's (Ultras just have a much worse one) Even MGs/30mm Chainguns/50. Cals/Artillery Cannons used by todays soldiers have an IE (Immediate Action Drill) that you do to figure out why the weapon stopped firing and one of those reasons is ALWAYS and obstruction/blockage AKA it is Jammed.

I have come across a different build lately, about the same time as the increase of the ac/40's. and that's a single AC/20 with two or three SRM-6's. Yes heavies and assaults only but if you group fire those it's potentially 44- 56 damage vs the 40 from the twins. I know it's not all pinpoint but two salvos from that and any mech still standing is in real trouble.

[MadcatX]

The dual-AC20 build has been around since the start of closed beta with the 'pult.

But this is one of those cases where, as some have mentioned, the disadvantages to running twin-AC 20's actually balance it out rather well.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Carrioncrows, on 18 November 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

This is less to do with the Boom Jager being a bad choice as it is the Meta being dominated by long range AC fire.

Wind back a few months when SRM's did their job,brawling was much more prolific and Er PPC's and Gauss where everywhere.

Yes ERPPC's and Gauss were devistating but so was the counter, using brawlers to get up in their grill where the heavy heat of ERPPC's would limit their options.

Now it's all long ranged AC fire and there is no reason to close the distance.

Even now there are 3 types of Jagers out there.

Quad AC5
Trip UAC5
Dual 20's.

You see a Jager dollars to doughnuts they are one of the above builds.

Yes it's mean, it's brutal and in skilled hands even with the above change will still be devastating. Maybe part of the reason 20 Jagers are the defacto brawling mech IS because srm's are {Scrap} right now and nothing else is out there. But I would at least like to make em work for a kill.

The Alpha penalty for twin 20's isn't severe enough IMHO.

you missed my fav Jagger. the PPC, LPL, 6xMG Jagger. Nice nasty get away from my assault you annoying light mech type of build. almost never has heat issues, has a standard engine and 8k MG rounds. very nasty indeed. Great for river city in the building fights as well.

[Karl Streiger]

MadcatX, on 18 November 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

The dual-AC20 build has been around since the start of closed beta with the 'pult.

But this is one of those cases where, as some have mentioned, the disadvantages to running twin-AC 20's actually balance it out rather well.

Ok I want to post that before http://mwomercs.com/...-joseph-mallan/ shows up and says that dual 20s are fine - because its that way for 30 years

The main problem with Dual 20s is the reason why it is a viable build:
Armor is not that good and XL will kill you - but chances are high that you can deliver some killing blows that deal serious damage. So your income would be a good one.

Dying is not a problem in MWO - supply is no problem = its HIGH RISK - HIGH Damage all the time.

If it would been possible to drive a BattleMaster with 7 Clan ER-PPCs + Gauss - delivering 120 dmg on point - some will drove that thing - even when it means you die in the same salvo -> but KdR is still even and you will get average income.

Again some butterfly effect: no RnR (even when it isn't optimal = front loading damage = Alpha Warrior -> High Damage Meta....

[MadcatX]

On paper it does seem nasty.

But on the field, it's circumstantial and really depends on what your up against. Unlike the OP sniping builds which were LOW RISK / HIGH DAMAGE of the past. It does have high damage potential, but the high risk is constant.

It's nasty in the hands of a good pilot, but then again so are many other builds. So I don't put this in any sort of OP category.

[fandre]

I like my Jagger with 2x AC10 and 2x ML. It is a decent build which provides quiet some fun. Maybe i will try to stuffe 4x ML into it but i need some c-bills to change it.

IMO it is ok, that AC40 builds exists and are in use. There are a lot of disadventages when you try them and it is relativly easy to kill them as a skilled pilot. But on the other side I would prefer, if the effective use of AC40 builds would be limited to Assault class mechs.

Edited by fandre, 18 November 2013 - 05:51 AM.

[Sandpit]

Carrioncrows, on 18 November 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

So on Apsen you have no issue with dual ac20 jagers and can snipe them down.

Noted.

All other maps I can easily get within 300m of the enemy unmolested and then if you are alone you are dead, even 2v1 I would give even odds to killing the both of you. Assault mech or not. I don't miss, and I know lots of other players that simply don't miss either.

On chainfire, I don't miss.

But at least it takes the easy mode of the equation.

Since you enjoy putting words in someone's mouth

So you can't counter a short ranged weapon that's completely useless outside of 300 meters that sits on top of paper armor, check.

AC40 mechs aren't op, nor are they anywhere near unbeatable. It's not hard. It's no different than everyone else running around on the forums pleading with the devs to "fix" poptarting, ACs, spiders, assaults, lrms, terra therma, etc.

The truly interesting thing is that regardless of the "broken" feature they're complaining about, every single poll that allows players to vote on these things shows that the actual majority feel they aren't "broken"

If you don't believe me feel free to check the polls littering the forums. They're usually abandoned by their OP and defenders once it's apparent the majority of the players don't agree with them. Then we get dozens of posts without the poll stating exactly what this thread does. It's broken, most players agree, when every single poll proves otherwise.