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Stop Complaining About Screen Shake


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#21 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 04:58 AM

View PostPrezimonto, on 21 November 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

We need a mechanism to ameliorate the affect of pin point convergence, not ghost heat. They'd achieve the same goal, and have a tighter game with a higher skill cap if done well. There's tons of ideas on how to do it, implement one.


Is there at least one of these on every balance thread about anything?

Higher skill cap isn't an end unto itself.

It would not be beneficial.

It's not going to happen.

Ever.

Get over it.

#22 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostLordBraxton, on 21 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Here's my disorganized opinion, I enjoy discussion and respect disagreement.

I see a lot of posts complaining about screen shake.

It just makes me worried we will see PGI do something crazy and make all screen shake negligible.

Maybe I'm just paranoid?

I remember back in CB, when AC/2s were my favorite weapon, because they shook you AS MUCH as an AC\10 or 20.

They barely shake you around now, and because a lot of ballistics are in the meta now, people have begun to complain.

Energy weapons need help, ghost heat was overkill when really only the PPC was the problem weapon. The suppression fire element of light ballistics need to stay, ghost heat needs to be a PPC exclusive or something....

Ballistics are fine, Help energy, especially LLs which are capped to 2 right now.

Don't touch screen shake!

Thoughts?

The only time screen shake really affects my ability to fight is when being slammed by missiles. I am good with that cause... DUH explosives!

#23 Prezimonto

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 05:49 AM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 22 November 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:


Is there at least one of these on every balance thread about anything?

Higher skill cap isn't an end unto itself.

It would not be beneficial.

It's not going to happen.

Ever.

Get over it.

I don't argue to abolish it. I argue that it's a fine mechanism. It just needs some balance. I argue that there should be a short delay in obtaining perfect convergence just like your targeting information on the mech comes with a delay, and that it should even auto correct for movement by giving you a "lead" dot. I also argue for a relatively simple "spread" that's predictable: I want torso mounted weapons to fly straight out of the mech until you get perfect convergence, while arms will full actuators and single fired weapons will go directly to your crosshair if you don't have a good lock and full target information. This is not random spread, your weapons will always go exactly where they're supposed to go. It's purely a system to slow down the ability to do pin point alpha/grouped strikes.

This does multiple things for the game at one time:
1) It emphasizes that having full arm actuators is not just a nerf to a mech by making them unable to mount AC20's, as full actuated arms should converge automatically. This in turn will create larger reasons for players to target hard points other than the center torso as arms will become tantalizing targets loaded with the bulk of the mech's damage output in many cases.

2) It helps balance high mounted arm hard points (vs. low) as high arms are much better for staying in cover while fighting (ridge humping). Now those mechs will need a little more time to do damage, helping balance the low mounted arms that can fire as soon as they're in the open.

3) It emphasizes single firing weapons over grouped/alpha strike weapons as single fired weapons should converge to the crosshair with no delay. This will increase the survivability of larger mechs to large pin-point alphas as it will take longer to put massive damage on a single hard point. This is a good thing for the game. It doesn't significantly effect the ability to damage small fast mechs as single fired ballistics and chain fired lasers are already the best ways to take them down in most situations.

4) It provides a link to the targeting system, which in turn provides better synergy for support and spotting roles in the game. Currently, LRM boats are the only mechs that synergize significantly with the rest of the team. This would put a mechanism in the game where scoutting/spotting becomes something that every player wants someone doing actively. Diversifying the ways to play and make useful and significant contributions to a team is a good thing.

5) It means that ECM would need a rework as it's totally broken that not being able to target a mech completely shuts down weapons that work off of a lock. When this effects everyone it will be recognized widely as being totally over powered. I recommend that ECM work on just the mech using it while that mech is in motion, and that the field spread outwards when still. This provides a much better in game balance as the ECM mech needs to do something generally dangerous (not moving) to reap the massive benefits of covering the entire team, while preserving the main benefit for just itself.

6) Higher skill cap with a reasonable entry level climb is something to be sought. It only promotes good play over time, and increases the interest as a player gains familiarity with the system. This actually makes play easier for low level players by re-emphasizing single fired weapons. That creates simpler weapon groups for new users and makes entry level mechs more survivable without upgrades. On the other end it pushes up the skill cap as players have to gauge weapon spread off their torsos for snap shots and/or deal with using mech loadouts that rely on arm hard points which are easier to pick off.

7) We can eliminate ghost heat as this mechanism will serve to spread and slow alpha strikes(the primary issue that ghost heat addresses), and the weapons can go back to being balanced based on regular heat generated and tweaking how heat sinks work (more or less threshold and cooldown) all of which is more intuitive to understand for the new player (which is a good thing).

On the con side: I see none, honestly. Unless you're a player who is only capable of winning by using large alphas with pin point convergence to totally wreck people with alpha strike after alpha strike. Then I could see how this is something you'd be afraid of being implemented.

Edited by Prezimonto, 22 November 2013 - 05:54 AM.


#24 Almond Brown

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostLordBraxton, on 21 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Here's my disorganized opinion, I enjoy discussion and respect disagreement.

I see a lot of posts complaining about screen shake.

It just makes me worried we will see PGI do something crazy and make all screen shake negligible.

Maybe I'm just paranoid?

I remember back in CB, when AC/2s were my favorite weapon, because they shook you AS MUCH as an AC\10 or 20.

They barely shake you around now, and because a lot of ballistics are in the meta now, people have begun to complain.

Energy weapons need help, ghost heat was overkill when really only the PPC was the problem weapon. The suppression fire element of light ballistics need to stay, ghost heat needs to be a PPC exclusive or something....

Ballistics are fine, Help energy, especially LLs which are capped to 2 right now.

Don't touch screen shake!

Thoughts?



To late. As of Tuesday past, for a mere 2mill CB's and 5K GXP they now offer the Improved Gyro (33% less shake)... ;)

View PostSandpit, on 21 November 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Screen shake works fine in my opinion


It is the smoke that is way more distracting. :huh:

Edited by Almond Brown, 22 November 2013 - 08:08 AM.


#25 Almond Brown

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:27 AM

As a follow up. Given the current Impulse values, something may be amiss.

Caliber - Impulse - RoF

AC/10 - 0.060 - 2.50
AC/2 - 0.038 - 0.52
AC/20 - 0.130 - 4.00
AC/5 - 0.040 - 1.50

You receive 5 AC2's for every AC/10 and yet the Impulse is only -50%.
You receive 8 AC2's for every AC/20 and yet the Impulse is only +30%.
You receive 3 AC2's for every AC/5 and yet the Impulse is virtually equal.

Just doesn't seem right. ;)

#26 Trauglodyte

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:36 AM

AC shake is fine. Missile shake is still as bad as it was at Beta release. They only toned down the ACs.

#27 anonymous161

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostPrezimonto, on 22 November 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't argue to abolish it. I argue that it's a fine mechanism. It just needs some balance. I argue that there should be a short delay in obtaining perfect convergence just like your targeting information on the mech comes with a delay, and that it should even auto correct for movement by giving you a "lead" dot. I also argue for a relatively simple "spread" that's predictable: I want torso mounted weapons to fly straight out of the mech until you get perfect convergence, while arms will full actuators and single fired weapons will go directly to your crosshair if you don't have a good lock and full target information. This is not random spread, your weapons will always go exactly where they're supposed to go. It's purely a system to slow down the ability to do pin point alpha/grouped strikes.

This does multiple things for the game at one time:
1) It emphasizes that having full arm actuators is not just a nerf to a mech by making them unable to mount AC20's, as full actuated arms should converge automatically. This in turn will create larger reasons for players to target hard points other than the center torso as arms will become tantalizing targets loaded with the bulk of the mech's damage output in many cases.

2) It helps balance high mounted arm hard points (vs. low) as high arms are much better for staying in cover while fighting (ridge humping). Now those mechs will need a little more time to do damage, helping balance the low mounted arms that can fire as soon as they're in the open.

3) It emphasizes single firing weapons over grouped/alpha strike weapons as single fired weapons should converge to the crosshair with no delay. This will increase the survivability of larger mechs to large pin-point alphas as it will take longer to put massive damage on a single hard point. This is a good thing for the game. It doesn't significantly effect the ability to damage small fast mechs as single fired ballistics and chain fired lasers are already the best ways to take them down in most situations.

4) It provides a link to the targeting system, which in turn provides better synergy for support and spotting roles in the game. Currently, LRM boats are the only mechs that synergize significantly with the rest of the team. This would put a mechanism in the game where scoutting/spotting becomes something that every player wants someone doing actively. Diversifying the ways to play and make useful and significant contributions to a team is a good thing.

5) It means that ECM would need a rework as it's totally broken that not being able to target a mech completely shuts down weapons that work off of a lock. When this effects everyone it will be recognized widely as being totally over powered. I recommend that ECM work on just the mech using it while that mech is in motion, and that the field spread outwards when still. This provides a much better in game balance as the ECM mech needs to do something generally dangerous (not moving) to reap the massive benefits of covering the entire team, while preserving the main benefit for just itself.

6) Higher skill cap with a reasonable entry level climb is something to be sought. It only promotes good play over time, and increases the interest as a player gains familiarity with the system. This actually makes play easier for low level players by re-emphasizing single fired weapons. That creates simpler weapon groups for new users and makes entry level mechs more survivable without upgrades. On the other end it pushes up the skill cap as players have to gauge weapon spread off their torsos for snap shots and/or deal with using mech loadouts that rely on arm hard points which are easier to pick off.

7) We can eliminate ghost heat as this mechanism will serve to spread and slow alpha strikes(the primary issue that ghost heat addresses), and the weapons can go back to being balanced based on regular heat generated and tweaking how heat sinks work (more or less threshold and cooldown) all of which is more intuitive to understand for the new player (which is a good thing).

On the con side: I see none, honestly. Unless you're a player who is only capable of winning by using large alphas with pin point convergence to totally wreck people with alpha strike after alpha strike. Then I could see how this is something you'd be afraid of being implemented.



Damn kid you have way too much time on your hands.

#28 Prezimonto

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostDarth Bane001, on 22 November 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:



Damn kid you have way too much time on your hands.


So you admit that I've presented reasonable arguments, and have done a good analysis? Also, I'm probably older than you. ;) I'm between terms and have finished grading, so I'm due a little free time, and this game's actual game play is stale. Instead I like to spend time trying to lay suggestions to make it better.

#29 Doomstryke

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostSandpit, on 21 November 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

;)
Ok this one I HAVE to hear......

How exactly does changing ghost heat change screen shake....? :huh:
(tin foil hat on aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand GO!)


He's just saying it would decrease the amount of balistics used because more people would use lasers (no shake) and srms. So it would decrease how often your screen shakes overall, but it wouldn't lower the amount of shaking when it does occur though less often. Least that's what I assume he ment

#30 Sandpit

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostPrezimonto, on 22 November 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:


So you admit that I've presented reasonable arguments, and have done a good analysis? Also, I'm probably older than you. ;) I'm between terms and have finished grading, so I'm due a little free time, and this game's actual game play is stale. Instead I like to spend time trying to lay suggestions to make it better.

regardless of my opinion on your suggestion, the community would be a much better place if people did just that. Give suggestions and ideas to make it better. Even if you don't agree with an idea or opinion it's still good to have ideas tossed around. Sometimes two contradictory ideas can come together and form a good one that the majority likes (which are generally the ideas that the devs listen to and implement coincidentally)

#31 kuangmk11

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 03:06 PM

It actually does seem like something is wrong with the shake calculation. Shake = Damage per Projectile * Impulse. With the current numbers that would mean that the AC/20 (2.6 shake) should be 34.21 times as powerful as the AC/2 (0.076 Shake). It doesn't seem like the case to me. My proposal to base shake solely on damage would actually increase shake for all ACs (save for AC/20 which was used as baseline). Is it really working as intended? It looks/feels all wrong.

numbers: Google Doc

Posted Image

#32 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostDoomstryke, on 22 November 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:


He's just saying it would decrease the amount of balistics used because more people would use lasers (no shake) and srms. So it would decrease how often your screen shakes overall, but it wouldn't lower the amount of shaking when it does occur though less often. Least that's what I assume he ment


it wouldn't happen. shake is just bumped up to sell more modules and that's it, vets can handle the shake and will use frontloaded weapons such as ac's for that perk and scrapers if they want to play lazors. it actually helps give weapons like lrm 5's something to keep in mind of, catapult chain spammers actually have a use now.

#33 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:35 AM

Pretty sure the screen shake still doesn't do anything so just ignore it.

#34 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:03 AM

Stop telling others what they should and should not complain about.

#35 Screech

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:18 AM

Can we at least get rid of the shake from people firing near you? It is not immersive it is silly.

#36 Nehkrosis

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:23 AM

does that even happen?

#37 kuangmk11

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:51 AM

View PostScreech, on 24 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Can we at least get rid of the shake from people firing near you? It is not immersive it is silly.

The "shake" animation for people landing near you is horrible. Its not even a shake its a head roll and its the same every time. It should be redone to be a an actual shake. It may be the same basic animation as being hit but without the flash, smoke, sound and blur.

#38 topgun505

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:31 AM

Screen shake I think is fine at this point.

However.

Screen SMOKE/FIRE is a bit much. For a LRM-20 volley or an ac 10 or 20 hit, sure, you should get some fire and brimstone in front of your screen. But for an AC2? No. Just ... No. Yet right now when you get hit with AC2 strikes it is like someone dropped a napalm bomb in front of you. Anything less than a 10 point hit should not be completely obscuring your vision.





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