80 replies to this topic

[F lan Ker]

S!

That would be called kill stealing The boom of the AC20 has true oomph in it

[Appogee]

Fierostetz, on 22 November 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Walice I think we all overreacted,

To be honest, I think the reactions are valid. We don't want Assaults on our team who cherry-pick kills from the edge of the map and don't soak up some of the incoming fire. It's reasonable to point out to someone that this is poor team play... it usually results in a loss for the team.

By way of contrast, here's me doing 6 kills, >1000 damage, in a Light, in an 8v8 match, while not part of a pre-made. While I could show games where I did 7 kills and 700+ in Ilyas and Firebrands in 12v12 matches, I think they are less ''creditable'' in terms of performance because those Mechs are more powerful.



By contrast, here I did 7 kills in a Kintaro. It's a Medium, and I'm not in a pre-made, so that makes it more of an achievement. But if you look at the scoreboard, there are two other players who did more damage than me but who got 0 and 1 kill respectively. I conclude therefore that I must have been lucky to deliver the killing blows to Mechs that they had already done most of the damage to... not quite the epic personal achievement it might have initially seemed.

Edited by Appogee, 23 November 2013 - 02:46 AM.

[Odin]

Walice, pride is regarded as a weakness, wise men say.

I only got 6, so far. First time in my YLW.

Edited by Odin, 23 November 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

I am always more impressed with high kill counts combined with low damage. Why? Because that means you are optimizing your efficiency and utilizing info gathering to the maximum benefit. Which is why the 25% increase Info gathering Module is the most important module and always has been. Securing kills in minimal time and effort is the way to go. There are times you can't avoid doing tons of damage but you should never break 1000 if you are efficient and placing your shots where they count.

Do not talk to me about "killstealing" it doesn't exist in a team based shooter. If you begrudge your teammates for getting the killing blow you are just clueless.

As for the OP: He managed to help his team win with what many of us would frown upon since he was in a damage tanking mech. Is it honorable? Depends on your personal feelings. Is it any different than a 4 man group hanging back letting the PUGs soak damage and strip armor only to do something similar to swoop in and clean up the rest of the enemy for a win? Not really. If he did what he did and lost the match then there would be an argument to chastise him/her. A win is a win though. It isn't the way I play an Atlas but he/she got the job done.

[MustrumRidcully]

I don't remever ever having a 7 man kill streak, regardless of whether I sneak around the back and kill-steal or do it all myself.

I suppose it's a statistical outlier where everything went right for him, but I think any attempts at "educating" him or ridiculing him will be pointless. If he can repeat this results, then his tactic is working and he's right, if he's not, he'll hopefully learn new tactics that still lead his team to victory.

[Appogee]

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

You should never break 1000 if you are efficient and placing your shots where they count.

I just tested that out in Testing Grounds. It takes 160 damage to core an Atlas with lasers. So as a baseline it would take 1120 damage to kill 7 of them if every single shot lands dead on the CT. Of course, not every enemy is an Atlas (unless you're playing in the evenings against the European Steiner team). It takes 120 to core an Awesome, and 80 to core a Centurion if every single shot lands dead on the CT..

So, while it's theoretically possible to kill a typical mix of 7 Mechs for less than 1000 damage if every single shot lands dead on the CT...surely you're not telling us you're that good?

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Is it any different than a 4 man group hanging back letting the PUGs soak damage and strip armor only to do something similar to swoop in and clean up the rest of the enemy for a win?

No, it's no different. But those two ''wrongs'' don't make each other ''right'', either.

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

He did what he did and lost the match then there would be an argument to chastise him/her. A win is a win though. It isn't the way I play an Atlas but he/she got the job done.

He won this time. But how many times did he attempt this approach and fail, causing the team to lose because it had 100 tons of armor and weapons not engaging fully, trying instead to farm kills? And how many more times will people try it and fail, causing their teams to lose, if we applaud them for ''it worked this time, so well done''.

Edited by Appogee, 23 November 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[Budor]

Back in the days...

Edited by Budor, 23 November 2013 - 03:57 AM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Appogee, on 23 November 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

I just tested that out in Testing Grounds. It takes 160 damage to core an Atlas with lasers. So as a baseline it would take 1120 damage to kill 7 of them if every single shot lands dead on the CT. Of course, not every enemy is an Atlas (unless you're playing in the evenings against the European Steiner team). It takes 120 to core an Awesome, and 80 to core a Centurion if every single shot lands dead on the CT..

So, while it's theoretically possible to kill a typical mix of 7 Mechs for less than 1000 damage if every single shot lands dead on the CT...surely you're not telling us you're that good?



No, it's no different. But those two ''wrongs'' don't make each other ''right'', either.



He won this time. But how many times did he attempt this approach and fail, causing the team to lose because it had 100 tons of armor and weapons not engaging fully, trying instead to farm kills? And how many more times will people try it and fail, causing their teams to lose, if we applaud them for ''it worked this time, so well done''.

When you consider focus firing and Side torso's with XL engines I still stand by the comment that you should not reach 1000 damage very often. In fact it should be very rare when you target properly no matter how many kills you get. I consider 100 damage a kill to be pretty efficient and a good standard to shoot for. Granted you are relying on teammates to strip armor and focus firing which we hope any team we are on is doing but the main key is using you info gathering of the enemy paper doll to its maximum effectiveness. I have gotten 5,6, and 7 kills and not broke 100 damage. I do not have screen shots at the moment since I tend not to do that much but should it occur in the near future I will be sure to update this thread. I tend to be very patient when dueling or picking targets of opportunity so I will say my skill is very high in that regard and I can secure kills in less damage than most people.

You can speculate till the cows come home about the OP but in this situation he was on the winning side and it did work. It is irrelevant if he plays this way all the time. I am critiquing this one game which there is evidence of the play style. Not saying I agree with it at all but in this instance it worked.

I see you mention "kill stealing" and by your definition consider what the OP did as such which is your right but again you can't project your gaming morality on someone else. Do you honestly think his intentions were to "killsteal"? Maybe...who cares? I guess you do but it isn't your right to dictate how other's play the game. If I were on this guys team I would not approve either but since he won the game and garnered me a few extra CB should I complain?

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 23 November 2013 - 05:48 AM.

[Appogee]

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

When you consider focus firing and Side torso's with XL engines I still stand by the comment that you should not reach 1000 damage very often.

''Killing with minimum damage'' is an interesting perspective and I guess a valid one. But then, I've had matches where I've got 5 kills and only 220 damage - through some combination of accurate targeting, cheesy AC40s and luck. So, a low ''damage per kill'' ratio isn't necessarily an indicator of good piloting either, I guess. That's why I have trouble with boiling it down to a simple assessment such as ''<1000 is good''.

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

You can speculate till the cows come home about the OP but in this situation he was on the winning side and it did work. It is irrelevant if he plays this way all the time.

I disagree. If we all hang back waiting to pick off kills, no one will do the heavy lifting on damage, and we'll all lose together.

I'm not arguing against accurate weapons targeting and fire - I always take the Advanced Targeting Module for exactly that reason. I am arguing for people engaging fully and with the goal of team winning, rather than trying to inflate their k/d stats.

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

You can't project your gaming morality on someone else.

Yes we can. It's a team game. We have a collective responsibility to each other. This is the nature of team sport, and more broadly, society.

We discuss these issues often to arrive at a common understanding. For example, as a result of this thread, I have gained a new perspective on how ''low damage/high kills'' may be an indication of skill rather than just luck or kill stealing.

Edited by Appogee, 23 November 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[Raso]

Walice, on 22 November 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Hey man, one more kill and you could have unlocked the LOL-ttack dog perk. At 3 kills you should have used the advanced fish AI strike which might have helped to get you that final kill.

I think at 10 kills you get the S#!t Stick 3000. That'll pwn some noobz.

[DrSlamastika]

LOLOL what a FATLASSS

ok jokes off, welcome here boy and try challenge my Misery.

But again I think 7 kills are nice, what was the DMG???

I have many time 6 kills, but never 7. . but its not so important like DMG what you does.

Edited by DrSlamastika, 23 November 2013 - 08:15 AM.

[anonymous161]

I've had very few games of this but I've dominated a team at least kill and damage wise I've had up to I believe 8 kills though it could have been 7 but I never just farm kills, for me thats just boring, I have most fun being in the middle of a fire fight with my team, I rather play honorable. I will stop base capping in my spider if I'm the only one there and there is still a chance to win by fighting I will get off, I've even had the enemy team thank me and they would get off our cap so we could actually play the game. A lot of times I end up winning but not always.

For me it's mostly about everyone playing together as a team.

This guy I would have been sorely tempted to leg him from behind and then leave him to the enemy if he doesn't want to be part of the team then he can be on the enemy team for all I care. Not saying I've done this though.

As for scaring off new players like this Walice guy I say do it, I rather play with quality players than an abundance of 10 year olds screaming at team mates calling them Fa gs team shooting or killing then leaving in a rage. If this game cant bring forth decent players who care about the franchise then it's better off dead.

Halo games in general have been struggling to stay alive because of the behavior of the players. I often get team killed, or just shot at so I cant enjoy the game which makes me either kill him or just leave the game. Same applies for this.

Edited by Darth Bane001, 23 November 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Odin]

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

I am always more impressed with high kill counts combined with low damage. Why? Because that means you are optimizing your efficiency and utilizing info gathering to the maximum benefit. Which is why the 25% increase Info gathering Module is the most important module and always has been. Securing kills in minimal time and effort is the way to go. There are times you can't avoid doing tons of damage but you should never break 1000 if you are efficient and placing your shots where they count.

Do not talk to me about "killstealing" it doesn't exist in a team based shooter. If you begrudge your teammates for getting the killing blow you are just clueless.

As for the OP: He managed to help his team win with what many of us would frown upon since he was in a damage tanking mech. Is it honorable? Depends on your personal feelings. Is it any different than a 4 man group hanging back letting the PUGs soak damage and strip armor only to do something similar to swoop in and clean up the rest of the enemy for a win? Not really. If he did what he did and lost the match then there would be an argument to chastise him/her. A win is a win though. It isn't the way I play an Atlas but he/she got the job done.

Absolute.

Efficiency, the highest possible situational awareness (SA).
Its teamdeathmatch not teamdamagematch.
So, ...put them down.
Best done a Victor though.

[Mavairo]

Darth Bane001, on 23 November 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I've had very few games of this but I've dominated a team at least kill and damage wise I've had up to I believe 8 kills though it could have been 7 but I never just farm kills, for me thats just boring, I have most fun being in the middle of a fire fight with my team, I rather play honorable. I will stop base capping in my spider if I'm the only one there and there is still a chance to win by fighting I will get off, I've even had the enemy team thank me and they would get off our cap so we could actually play the game. A lot of times I end up winning but not always.

For me it's mostly about everyone playing together as a team.

This guy I would have been sorely tempted to leg him from behind and then leave him to the enemy if he doesn't want to be part of the team then he can be on the enemy team for all I care. Not saying I've done this though.

As for scaring off new players like this Walice guy I say do it, I rather play with quality players than an abundance of 10 year olds screaming at team mates calling them Fa gs team shooting or killing then leaving in a rage. If this game cant bring forth decent players who care about the franchise then it's better off dead.

Halo games in general have been struggling to stay alive because of the behavior of the players. I often get team killed, or just shot at so I cant enjoy the game which makes me either kill him or just leave the game. Same applies for this.

If you stop capping in your spider for any reason other than you got chased off, if I saw you I'd consider vaping you myself honestly. If I'm in a furball, and the enemy is too dumb to turn around or send someone to go deal with a capper (or pair of them), that's on them man. All we have to do is either A: Hold the line or B: Kill them when they turn around to go deal with the cap.

In ninety percent of cap wins (the whole 18 percent of the time that happens over all) it's because the losing team decided to over extend themselves and were made to pay for it. Those people then come onto the forums to whine. Well, it's their fault they lost in the first place. There is nothing wrong with taking a Cap Win.

The game is not Death Match. And I pray to god they never put a death match mode in.
It's not "honorable" to step off cap. Honor and strategic stupidity are not one in the same thing at all. You're damn right I'm going to cap if I think I can get away with it. Just like that if I can get away with it I'm going to flank someone and shoot them in their delicious back armor, and target the weakest components I see and Focus Firing with team mates rather than just shooting randomly like an *****, .

People learn, by playing. Driving someone away because they were playing is just stupid. It's not like this guy was sitting at the friendly cap point and waiting on his team to go do the work.

Could he have done the job better with a better loadout? You bet. But he WAS shooting the entire match. Sure he could have been useful on the battle line, but at least he wasn't cowering in a corner never firing, or in a Fatlas Loaded with LRMs

Edited by Mavairo, 23 November 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Goosfraba]

Im just gonna leave this here, a pity he doesn't play anymore.

[Mister Blastman]

Budor, on 23 November 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Back in the days...

Now there's some names in that list we don't see anymore.

[Walice]

Cry all you want but 7 kills and 848 damage is good no matter how you slice it. I play to win not to please my teammates. just sound like a lot of jealousy. Not a singel kill was stolen and I had crit ct damage on top of that. If any of you took the time to pay attention to the video its all about aim if you bothered to look where i was shooting.

[PlzDie]

Walice, on 24 November 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Cry all you want but 7 kills and 848 damage is good no matter how you slice it. I play to win not to please my teammates. just sound like a lot of jealousy. Not a singel kill was stolen and I had crit ct damage on top of that. If any of you took the time to pay attention to the video its all about aim if you bothered to look where i was shooting.

Yes you are right, screw the team who needs them if it wasn't for them you would have had 12 kills.

Edited by Duppie1974, 24 November 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[Walice]

Duppie1974, on 24 November 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Yes you are right, screw the team who needs them if it wasn't for them you would have had 12 kills.

if it wasnt for me they would have LOST.

[ApolloKaras]

GRiPSViGiL, on 23 November 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

I am always more impressed with high kill counts combined with low damage. Why? Because that means you are optimizing your efficiency and utilizing info gathering to the maximum benefit. Which is why the 25% increase Info gathering Module is the most important module and always has been. Securing kills in minimal time and effort is the way to go. There are times you can't avoid doing tons of damage but you should never break 1000 if you are efficient and placing your shots where they count.

Do not talk to me about "killstealing" it doesn't exist in a team based shooter. If you begrudge your teammates for getting the killing blow you are just clueless.

As for the OP: He managed to help his team win with what many of us would frown upon since he was in a damage tanking mech. Is it honorable? Depends on your personal feelings. Is it any different than a 4 man group hanging back letting the PUGs soak damage and strip armor only to do something similar to swoop in and clean up the rest of the enemy for a win? Not really. If he did what he did and lost the match then there would be an argument to chastise him/her. A win is a win though. It isn't the way I play an Atlas but he/she got the job done.

I agree with most of this. Except this build on an Atlas is deplorable. If someone in an equal assault noticed this guy would have pin pointed on that Right torso, and would have left him with nothing at all. Then he's dedicated 100 tons to an ER large laser.

We can put this loadout on several chassis, and still go faster (before speed tweak) than the above mentioned Atlas with 30 less tons, and still have a Standard engine. Why we're dedicating two of the three weapon systems in one torso is beyond me. This only worked because no one noticed him - he went around the back unsupported and the enemies just let him shoot them. This speaks much less about the build and more of the ineptness of the guys he was fighting against.

I will agree that the OP was given an opportunity to jump in from behind and he took it, Bravo to the OP for risking it

Edited by Saxie, 24 November 2013 - 10:17 AM.