12 replies to this topic

[Weaselball]

Disclaimer: Right now I run dual UAC5's on only one mech, a Victor. I don't run UAC's on any of my other 19 mechs. But gosh darn it, I love them on Ol' Stompy, my VTR-9B.


The Problem:

As I currently see it, UAC5's are either REALLY great, or really ***. You either get long streaks without jams, or you jam every other shot - and it's frustrating as hell. And why is it this way? Because of RNG.

A random number generator dictates whether or not your next round will jam in the gun. That number is the same whether you've fired one shot, or 100 shots. It's what PGI has built the weapon around, and right now it's far too wonky of a system to make the weapon good... and I use the term "good" in design terms. The weapon can either truck an atlas, or barely hurt a locust... all because of the RNG associated with it.

Basically the player has ZERO input on whether or not their weapon will fire again after the click the mouse once. It's a coin-toss, and that's not good game design (when it comes to weapons in FPS/Sim type games)

The Solution(s):

There are several solutions that I (and others, I am sure) have come up with. Some are fairly complex, some are simple, but the ultimate goal is to outright remove the RNG factor with the weapon system (or, at the very least, reduce it's impact). But this must be done carefully, and in such a way as to not make the gun outright overpowered. If one simply removed the jam mechanic entirely from the weapon then it would be heads-and-tails better than AC5's, and nobody wants that.

So what do we do?

Solution 1) Make it so that the weapon, when held down, fires are normal AC5 fire-rate. It does not jam, but it does not fire a 2nd shot each time. When the player DOUBLE taps the weapon, however, it will fire twice, very quickly.... while at the same time increasing the weapon's base cooldown before it can fire next.

An example: If the AC5 has a cool down of 1.5 seconds, when the UAC5 is double tapped, it's cool down jumps up to 3 seconds. After which, once the 3 seconds are waited out, the weapon drops back down to its normal 1.5 sec cool down, so long as its fire like a normal AC5. Whenever it's double tapped though the CD is increased, effectively trading DPS for higher burst.

Solution 2) A little more complicated and involved, however this one gives a bit more finesse to the weapon. Introduce a new UI element on the HUD when one has a UAC5 equipped that monitors the weapon's individual heat. When you fire it, this heat spikes. The more you fire it, the higher it climbs, eventually reaching its jam point after, say, 3 double shots back-to-back. Once there it jams for a set amount of time, the weapon cools, and you can fire again.

This solution allows the player to dictate when the weapon jams. If they're in a spot where they aren't receiving much return fire, they can double shoot, then single, single, double, double, etc, effectively keeping the weapon under its jam threshold. If they get into a fight where they REALLY need the burst, they can just hold down until it jams.

It gives the player more power, though as I noted, it is a bit more complex.... and with systems in place like Ghost Heat and the Gauss wind-up, I'm not so sure players want more complex right now.

Solution 3) The weapon can only calculate a "jam" chance every double-shot... that is to say, every 2nd time it fires with the UAC mechanic. This would prevent situations arising, like currently happens, where you fire ONCE and the weapon jams - you don't even get the 2nd shot. With a system like this, however, you can get off multiple shots before you see a jam. If your first set of double's go through, you know you'll get a 2nd pair before they can jam.

To offset this system, however, the jam rate would need to probably be increased. This system is not ideal, however, as it still relies on RNG. But it would be preferred over the current method (IMHO) wherein you can fire a single shot, then be denied several seconds of fire without having ever even fired the ultra's signature "second shot."

The Conclusion:

Here's the TL;DR. RNG is a bad way to balance the UAC5, and it needs to be re-worked as a weapon system. I've outlined 3 ways to re-work the UAC5, and I feel they are fairly balanced. The goal is to make the weapon preform in a clear and non-confusing, non-random way, without making it blatantly overpowered.

Thank you for reading, and may Bacon bless you all.

[Sandpit]

I agree with ya. The RNG is rarely a good way to balance anything simply because it IS so random.
Example:

if I roll 2d6 the odds that I will roll a 12, while statistically the same each time, are actually weighted against that happening because there is only one result that will give me a 12. If I am trying to roll an 8 then I have 3 ways to get that result.

So, in TT I needed an 8+ to hit or make a skill roll, etc. I actually have a MUCH better chance of hitting that number in all practicality because I now have 9 different rolls of the dice that will give me a chance to make that successful roll. In an RNG situation I have only 4 different opportunities to make that same result. Even if the rng is based on 2d6 and "rolls" two separate "dice"

Now I know that statistically they might run the same but in practice they do not operate the same. That's exactly why you get maps 10 times in a row and UACs jamming every single time you fire at times.

To me, my opinion mind you, the best way to handle the UAC is to use a progressive system. The first time you fire it you have a xx% chance of jamming, If you fire a 2nd time using the rapid fire feature before a set cool down period the % increases, a 3rd time and it doubles form that, a 4th time you double the last % up to 90%, a 5th time is 100%.

Those numbers and % could easily be tweaked to find a good balance to ensure players can't fire with impunity but also don't suffer a basically useless weapon because it jams 7 times in a row on the first shot.

I hope my "simple" idea didn't get too convoluted
EDIT: Typos

Edited by Sandpit, 22 November 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

uac seems just fine to me. The jam is just part of the charm. I rarely end up with both jammed. pacing your RoF helps.

[Firewuff]

You are comparing 2d6 to 1d12 in which all numbers HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME CHANCE. The RNG is exactly that. Technically it is possibly but higjtly unlikely you never get to fire a shot with out naming again.

There is nothing wrong with a RNG. I use uac5 on most of my builds.. Always take a backup laser is my advice. Prior to the increase in the jam chance they were just too deadly. My dual uac5 + 2ll mets was just plain terrifying at any range

[Sandpit]

Firewuff, on 23 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

You are comparing 2d6 to 1d12 in which all numbers HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME CHANCE. The RNG is exactly that. Technically it is possibly but higjtly unlikely you never get to fire a shot with out naming again.

There is nothing wrong with a RNG. I use uac5 on most of my builds.. Always take a backup laser is my advice. Prior to the increase in the jam chance they were just too deadly. My dual uac5 + 2ll mets was just plain terrifying at any range

Not a certainty, you can use an RNG based on 2d6. Plenty of online games use them. MegaMek uses a 2d6 RNG as do quite a few MUDs (I may have just dated myself more than I care with that one lol)

[Firewuff]

The stated jam ratr is 20%... Why would they be doing it any other way other that

If(rnd(1) < 0.2). Jam.....

[Steel Talon]

Quote

It's a coin-toss, and that's not good game design (when it comes to weapons in FPS/Sim type games)

Agree, only thing where RNG should be in game are reward/loot systems.
I suspect all RNG lovers here for using macros to prevent jaming, this hole must be patched either by embeding non-jam fire mode ingame, or by changing how UAC work altogether.

Edited by Steel Talon, 24 November 2013 - 02:47 AM.

[Sandpit]

Firewuff, on 24 November 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

The stated jam ratr is 20%... Why would they be doing it any other way other that

If(rnd(1) < 0.2). Jam.....

It's not that a 20% chance is the issue. It's the fact that it's governed by an RNG. RNG are notoriously "bad" when it comes to things like this because of their absolute random nature. Physical dice have different statistical probabilities

Roll Freq Prob Bar 2 1 2.8%
3 2 5.6%
4 3 8.3%
5 4 11.1%
6 5 13.9%
7 6 16.7%
8 5 13.9%
9 4 11.1%
10 3 8.3%
11 2 5.6%
12 1 2.8%


An RNG has the exact same chance to roll the exact same number each time because of its random nature. It's the same thing with the map rotation mechanic we currently have. Over long term it will even out to become statistically neutral but you can and will have runs where you can get that same map 10 times in a row. The UAC, even though it only has a 20% chance, can and will ahve runs where it jams repeatedly, over and over and over. If we were playing longer games I don't think it would impact the mechanic so much, but because of the nature of an RNG and the short games it's not uncommon to get just horrible runs on stuff like this.

Basically nobody is complaining about the 20% chance of a jam, we are saying the RNG is a bad way to determine that. Not the rule, just the mechanic used to enforce the rule

[Nathan Foxbane]

Or you know, toggle double rate fire. Normal and it is just a heavier AC/5, double and the jam mechanic comes into play.

[Sandpit]

Nathan Foxbane, on 24 November 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Or you know, toggle double rate fire. Normal and it is just a heavier AC/5, double and the jam mechanic comes into play.

That's not really the point.......

New and casual players aren't going to go to the trouble or know how to do a macro. The mechanic now is much more complicated than it needs to be.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Sandpit, on 24 November 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

That's not really the point.......

New and casual players aren't going to go to the trouble or know how to do a macro. The mechanic now is much more complicated than it needs to be.

Not a macro. Just an actual toggle key set up by PGI. So it functions more like the TT Ultras... without the game long jam if the Ultra failed its double fire rate roll. Current mechanic is more player friendly than TT mechanic.

Been wanting that for ages. Just like a toggle for AMS and TAG. I know some people use the num pad for other things, but it is a great place to put toggles, quick and number coded.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 24 November 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Sandpit]

Nathan Foxbane, on 24 November 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Not a macro. Just an actual toggle key set up by PGI. So it functions more like the TT Ultras... without the game long jam if the Ultra failed its double fire rate roll. Current mechanic is more player friendly than TT mechanic.

Been wanting that for ages. Just like a toggle for AMS and TAG. I know some people use the num pad for other things, but it is a great place to put toggles, quick and number coded.

That's still not really the point.

The point is to come up with a better mechanic to determine when the UAC jams, not how to unjam it once it happens. I rarely use them so it doesn't affect me much but I've used them in the past and due to it running purely on an RNG mechanic it is very statistically possible to have it happen after each round fired and continue to happen each and every time in a row.

TT is a weighted system with completely different probabilities to help prevent some of this. I just think if they went to a progressive system it would still have the same type of randomness but weighted where it doesn't happen quite as often on the first shot or two and doesn't happen quite so many times in a row.

[Ihasa]

Like this much better than any RNG.

E: sorry sandpit quote is not working for me. Like anyway.

Edited by Ihasa, 24 November 2013 - 09:51 PM.