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Why The Orion Might Be Worse Than Before


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#1 Averen

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:40 AM

The Orion is, at least for me, a worse mech by now. Maybe easier, but far more boring at the same time. I'm convinced by that, and want to explain why, whatever it might be able to affect.

The protruding CT, in combination with the somewhat small ST's and large Arms were making the mech special, and, if you learn how to use the mech, could give you huge advantages.

First, damage distribution and preservation of firepower. Which is somewhat ironic, since the reason for the change were complaints about dying by loosing the CT. To avoid this, you just had to move a bit. In many other mechs, you might loose the ST's first, before even getting to much damage to the CT, which actually is a disadvantage. With the Orion, I lost multiple times all armor, with only small ammounts sometimes remaining at an arm, leg, or rear torso - but not loosing a single component! This alone should be a hint, why the pre-patch Orion was a great machine. Because i actually still had most of my weapons and equipment at the end of the round, even after engaging multiple times in close combat, and survived most fights just by moving a bit. The ST's might not be vulnerable, but actually great for damage distrubution, when the arms are relatively easy to hit. I don't know how so many people just overlook that fact.

Second, XL-Engines. And that is (or was) the other thing making the Orion special. It's the biggest Mech, which is able to effectively use XL-Engines. I wrote above, how easy it is to distribute damage, if you keep moving. That's perfect for using XL's. A common mistake of less experienced players is to assume, an easily hit CT is the best hint to choose an XL. And wrong at the same time. Because a big CT makes you easy to hit - this is why dragons are dying so fast. You want a mech, which is perfect at distributing damage, using every part of armor you can get, before dying by getting a torso killed.
Even more, the place in the engine weight/speed-formula makes the mech predominant contender for a fast, heavy mech using an XL. You have a large ammount of free tonnage, get even more advantage from XL, and even the internal dhs-ammount is in a perfect place, with 12 (XL300) and 14 (XL350), while still reaching a good speed without real tradeoffs (75 at XL350, 83 with Tweak). And i didnt even mention the great weapon-hardpoints, which compliments the Orion as an XL-Mech even more.

With my Orion-VA, i ran XL350, 2xLL and 4xASRM6. And although i thought of it as a joke-mech, i got in almost every match - even in defeats - more than 400dmg, usually above 600, and sometimes up to 1000+. My best Mech, I had enough mobility to use cover, and enough armor and weaponry to engage assaults. Most of all, it was an incredible fun config. Now that things just dies by loosing an ST.
My other XL-Orion is an K-Variant, running an XL300, and Gauß, 2PPC, 2LL. A whole bunch of weapons not seeming to compliment each other while steadily melting the mech. Againt, it was more made of humor than everythings else, i even started on the hot crystal-desert map. And got almost 700dmg on my first try, hardly even knowing what to do. As i accidently found out, it's the best mech to hunt support mechs like Jägermech's, or go for enemie weakpoints. Now People don't even miss the ST's at long range.

First, thank you for reading that wall of text. Please excuse grammatical mistakes, since english isn't my first language :)

PGI, even if it's probably not going to be undone, please just revert it. Although i wasnt sure about the Mech at the beginning, this Mech was one of the most fun elements in the game. Before i tried it, i unfairly thought of it as an incredible generic mech, an smaller atlas without noteworthy advantages. And now it's actually quite a bit more in that direction. The Orion surely isn't the easiest mech, but until now, it was one of the most rewarding one's to me. I could actually control to some degree which part of my mech was getting hit. Now it's just a case of the enemy fire usually just hitting everything, without much abillity to use any skill you might have aquired before. If that's not a step back, what else is it?

Edited by Averen, 24 November 2013 - 05:06 AM.


#2 Ironwithin

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:57 AM

Spreading damage still works (and even better now, for me at least) and if you pack a standard engine you'll live longer than before (yes, probably not with all your weapons). Survivability in that thing went WAY up.
I liked my Orions pre-patch, they were fun to play and could sometimes even make serious dents before toppling over with a cored CT.
Now, post-patch, they just rock, even if you still run XL engines (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, depends on the mood).
Adapt your playstyle if your old one isn't working anymore. The old hitboxes are probably not coming back and a new pass on those might be far, faaaar off in the future.

#3 Averen

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:09 AM

I don't even need to change my playstyle, because i already have a bunch of mechs being capable of the stuff an Orion can do now, thats exactly my point.

Not trying to insult you, but if you think survivability went way up, then you shouldn't advise others to adapt their playstyle. I did before and the Orion became one of my best mechs. And they could survive heavy fights perfectly well.

Edited by Averen, 24 November 2013 - 06:10 AM.


#4 Ironwithin

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:23 AM

So basically you're saying you want the Orion to be broken so you can feel "pro" for using it with some measure of success while everyone else avoids it like the plague because, well... it's broken.
Wonder when the first "My Awesome now totally suxx"-thread shows up.

K, moving on then.

#5 Autobot9000

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:32 AM

Sorry OP, but your post is nonesense. Arguing first, that you could preserve your firepower prepatch, because the CT was a huge glaring target and then telling people, that you could mitigate damage by moving around - that is directly contradicting what you tell us afterwards: Side torsos now receiving more damage than before, hence you lose your armament faster. Didn't you tell us before, that you could move and mitigate damage this way? Shouldn't this be even easier for a target zone, thats smaller than the giant CT?

Apart from the fact, that you're argumentation is contradicting, I find it's also false in the first place. You couldn't mitigate damage by moving your mech. The CT was so ridiculously big, that from all angles you would hit mostly the CT, hence the Orion was prone to get cored fast when under fire. This means of course, taht the changes from PGI were very good and that XLs are somewhat less viable now on the Orion, but telling from my first test matches not entirely unviable. I still belive PGI's distribution of target area size+facing isn't as good for the Orion as it is for the Cataphract, but it may be hard given the model geometry / appearance and the consistency requirement of geometry+hitboxes. You wouldn't approve, if the hitboxes were completely unaligned with the mech geometry would you?

#6 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:47 AM

No.

Spoiler


#7 Averen

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:09 AM

Wow.
It's no suprise that feedback wont get far, if every post not fitting your perspective is met with derision to hostility, with sprinkles of complete misunderstanding. If you think i'm contradicting myself, wouldn't be the least bit of courtesy to take into account, that it might be a misunderstanding? Instead of a 'gottcha'-attitude, trying to make me look bad?

I'm not even going to correct you, since you don't seem to be interested in a constructive discussion.

Just take that into account, since my experience is questioned: I'm playing since closed beta, have over 400 matches with orions, and my K has a win-ratio of 1.55, even though it's the only Orion, which has less than an average of 300dmg per match. I had succes with the mech, for all it counts. You didn't. So why am i supposed not to know what i'm talking about, compared to you?

Edited by Averen, 24 November 2013 - 07:11 AM.


#8 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:30 AM

View PostAveren, on 24 November 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

I had succes with the mech, for all it counts. You didn't. So why am i supposed not to know what i'm talking about, compared to you?


You have to be trolling to seriously request that they make a mech easier to core so you can justify a XL engine, Iv seen a lot of crazy things on these forums but this is right up there if your actually being serious.

(As for my accounts: Iv 1.62KD with avg 301DMG across 108 games, though iv also played a K model to 117 matches)

Iv only been playing my Orions sense the hitbox fix and much prefer it over the old one.

#9 Ironwithin

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:44 AM

View PostAveren, on 24 November 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Wow.
It's no suprise that feedback wont get far...


Why would you write that ? The Devs seem to aknowledge feedback very well these days, even if it takes them quite a while to present results.

Here's a totally unrelated example:
The Orion came out, everybody jumped on it and soon realised it's broken because of a ridiculously huge CT that gets you cored from all angles in no time. Many people provided feedback about it and whaddayaknow... it got a rework of it's hitboxes and now works alot better than before.

Weird hu ?

#10 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:39 AM

im not happy about spending 20 bucks on the orion only to have the CT nurfed and it's XL capabilities :)

#11 Averen

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:51 AM

View PostXeno Phalcon, on 24 November 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

You have to be trolling to seriously request that they make a mech easier to core so you can justify a XL engine, Iv seen a lot of crazy things on these forums but this is right up there if your actually being serious.


See, that's where you're missing my point. Might as well be bad communication from my side, but if you think someone writes someone crazy, then it's not the best idea to assume they're crazy. That's wrong.

I'm also not justifying anything, regardless of how manyh negativ adjectives you want to throw at me. As i said, the Orion became my best mech. Not because it's my most efficient (it isn't), but because it was the most fun.

Lets make it simple:
The idea of needing to justify an XL is actually pointless in itself. An XL is an advantage in the first place, as long as you can outweight the disadvantages. If the enemies isn't able to quickly core the ST (the XL is easy to identify in a fast heavy), the mech is okay for it. If the Mechs Layout allows you to make sure, that enemies fire is mostly distributed between CT, Arms, and only a smaller portion hitting the ST's, then it's perfect.

As i said, i never had problems with getting to much damage to the CT. This only happen as long as you play the mech like a normal heavy. Now, as the hitboxes are more similar to normal heavies, your ST's are getting easier killed, no matter how well you play. What does that tell you?

If its 'Faster dying = Easier Mech', then theres something wrong with you.
If its 'Just take a STD' ... we have already more than 20 mechs working quite finde with STD's.


View PostIronwithin, on 24 November 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

The Orion came out, everybody jumped on it

Like on my post you didn't even understand?
I wrote a rather long text to explain, why the Orion, at least from my perspective, might possibly have gotten worse than before. Written like a suggestion, and it didn't even took you much time to accuse me of elitism, just because I found ways to use the mech succesful, and was unhappy that time of experimenting and the fun results are pointless now.

Not to mention that i didn't even claim, that PGI wouldn't react to critism from this forum. So you didn't even took enough time to understand a short post.

Edited by Averen, 24 November 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#12 Deathlike

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:01 PM

One's opinions of these changes massively depends on the dependency of XL and how soft the CT felt to you before the changes.

The opinions posted here for the most part reflect that.

I think the Awesome changes are very similar to that... although the Awesome suffers differently (it has a wider torso than the Orion to deal with).

#13 Averen

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:35 PM

Yeah, you're right. It depends on your view on XL's. STD probably got better for the mech, since you don't get the speed or weapon advantage of XL-Engines.

The main Problem of the Orion is, that it doesn't really excel at anything else. You get interesting sets of hardpoints, but they are mostly useful for mixed weaponry, which is less usefull when using a STD.

Otherwise every other mech is better at dedicated configs. Even Xeno, who thinks the update is an improvement, said the mech was still a bit worse than a cataphract.
For Energy+Ballistic, go Cata, Battlemaster, Victor, or even Jäger. Pure Ballistic is still Jäger and Cataphract-variant territory. Rockets+some Laser? Go Catapult, Battlemaster, Stalker, maybe even Awesome. You could go SRM-heavy, but the std-mech doesn't have the necessary speed, is to big, and the hitboxes are still not perfect. Even that style is probably better with a heavier armored Battlemaster.

That's why i also wrote 'worse'. The Orion will have some things he isn't to bad at (e.g. with ac20), but it will usually just made obsolete by other mechs being better at their respective jobs. Contrary, there aren't to many mechs made for XL at the heavy to assault-border. Imo the number just dropped to zero.

Edited by Averen, 24 November 2013 - 02:00 PM.


#14 Deathlike

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:40 PM

I should mention one other thing. I know "lore" gets referenced, and the Orion is supposed to be a mini-Atlas. Well, an Atlas can't use XL in game effectively (unless, you like playing Russian Roulette) so the change in some ways should reflect that. I'm not justifying the change exactly, but if the intended role is to be a mini-Atlas, then the change probably makes more sense.

I've felt that the Orion's CT is rather squishy (easy to hit) prior to the change, and since the change I've had slightly more trouble facing them (note, this is all from the killing Orion side of things, not piloting one). Perhaps my opinion might change with more time playing vs them (and piloting one), but so far this change seems to reflect my POV.

Somethings have to give though when such changes are made.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 November 2013 - 04:41 PM.


#15 Girth Fillmore

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:24 PM

I loved the Orion before the hitbox changes because of the hardpoints, and I love it more today because of the durability.



P.S. Lose/Loose.

#16 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:40 PM

I actually hate the hip cannon and wish it had jump jets (basically wish it was a 75T victor that looked like a orion :D) still one of my fav mechs

Spoiler


#17 42and19

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:54 AM

Just popped in to say that I pulled 3 consecutive games with over 700 damage and over 3 kills.

The Orion is a beast like it should be. It's actually DURABLE like it should be. I don't feel like I am walking around with a 300 meter wide funnel attached to the front of my mech anymore. Before I could watch a gauss round hit the ground 30 meters to my right or left and it would still damage my CT (hyperbole used to make a point, I am perfectly aware of ghost damage and HSR issues)

#18 Modo44

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 06:48 AM

I still like my Timberwolf training wheels. (That joke build OP described, XL350, 2xERLL+SRM24, is a poor man's Timberwolf A.) Not being able to brawl with an XL engine anymore should hammer in this point: The Orion is not supposed to try and brawl. It did and does well at medium range.





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