351 replies to this topic

[dal10]

cmopatrick, on 11 February 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

I'm really looking forward to the Captain getting us moving, Shen isn't a leader. Besides, there seem to be a lot of others waiting for the move order (that Shen didn't doesn't make him a leader, just impatient).

Besides, Shen wants to kill a nerfed m1a1 so he can have dU plate scraps to make armor piercing ballistic sidearm rounds out of. The reason it would have to have been nerfed is the real thing would have more firepower at much greater range (2500m) than any of our 'Mechs because of the 120mm Rheinmetall SB combined with the accuracy of it's sighting/guidance.

side note, i tend to ignore canon range as a we just can't target any farther than this and instead view it as our weapons won't damage the armor past this range. similar to how mwo does it, except with a hard limit. the m1a1's main gun is equivalent to a heavy rifle btw.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Then you have BAR to play with.... Oh obsolete weapons, how Godlike you can make someone feel.

Ps it is BAR right?

[Spokes]

I think this is what Dal is talking about.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Rifle

[dal10]

spokes is right.

[cmopatrick]

@Spokes & @dal10:

Hence my description of the M1A1 dal10 wants to field against us as nerfed. Start with the fact that the linked description has significant problems since it was outdated in the field by the mid-nineties as the smooth-bore 120mm firing APFSDS munitions became the norm for most countries operating the tank (we used it in Desert Storm).

APFSDS munitions in BT terms are the precursor not of autocannons (firing HEAT-like gel munitions) but the gauss cannon firing kinetic energy rounds... depleted uranium rounds. Since none of us has reactive armor of any form, we would be VERY vulnerable to the 120mm SB at even normal light gauss range. With the accuracy of the systems for targeting, it could headshot any of our 'Mechs and make a kill. Besides, the ammo loadout of an M1A1 is 42 rounds... a heck of a lot more than anything we have on the ballistics side with even close to comparable damage... in spite of what the Heavy Rifle link says.

[dal10]

that doesn't take into account advances in armor. you could layer it properly to dissipate the force over a wide area. mech armor is a composite, which makes it stronger, as well as not perfectly sloped. the round would find less penetrative capabilities under both conditions.

[RogueSpear]

The way mech armour is described has a lot more in common with extremely advanced chobham type armour, which the M1A1's weaponry is already outclassed by (See the tests of NATO weaponry against the Challenger II Streetfighter upgrade). I've always viewed the mechwarrior weapon ranges as simply being a reflection of how much Space Magic has been incorporated into the defensive systems. The armour just can't be hurt above those very short ranges - similar to how the M4A1 Sherman couldn't penetrate a Tiger tank over 500m from any angle.

TL, DR, if there's an M1A1, don't even bother wasting munitions on it. It can't hurt you.

[cmopatrick]

Remember that your composite armor on a 'Mech is spread over a greater area than your Challenger II example. Not to mention that the kinetic weapon in the game, the gauss rifle, is actually quite successful at doing massive damage against that same composite armor. Coincidence, I'm sure.

Yes, the IS has managed to dumb down and lose the weapon itself since the start of the succession wars era, but that doesn't remove the truth that in 3040 it will again be one of the most damaging weapons on the battlefield.

I will accept whatever the GM says about any threat, but I do not accept that you have not nerfed the platform to keep it tame enough not to waste ordinance on.

[RogueSpear]

The 120mm APFSDS round on the M1 Abrams is the M829, which can penetrate 540mm of RHA at a 2 kilometre distance. It does this by firing a 41lb shell up to 1,740m/s.
An experimental railgun tested by the US army in 2008(IIRC) launched a 7lb shell to 5,400 m/s. I'm not going to calculate how much RHA that can penetrate, but I think we can agree that it's much in excess of the M829.
While these weapons are both kinetic energy penetrators, they are not comparable weapons. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, if I missed it my bad, but from what I got from what you said was 'Gauss rifles are powerful, therefore the Abrams is just as effective as one because they're both KEP weapons.'

EDIT: Somewhat redundant considering we are not going to be fighting M1 Abrams. But if we were, they're over a thousand years obsolete. Using the BAR system in place from BT, I suspect their damage is next to nil as I'm not even sure they would class as using primitive components.

Edited by RogueSpear, 12 February 2014 - 08:44 PM.

[Spokes]

Thom Frankfurt, on 12 February 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Then you have BAR to play with.... Oh obsolete weapons, how Godlike you can make someone feel.

Ps it is BAR right?

Oh, Barrier Armor Rating. I thought you were talking about a Browning Auto Rifle.

Don't mind me, I'm a little slow.

[cmopatrick]

@Rogue, Please let's get the facts straight: the US Navy test in 2008 accelerated the 7lb round to 5400 miles per hour not meters per second; the meters per second was closer to 2500 (Mach 7). The M829 is a Mach 5 plus round weighing far more.

The closest to weaponized railgun right now is the General Atomics Blitzer ( http://www.ga.com/railgun-systems ) with a tested muzzle velocity of 1600meters per second (Mach 5) and anticipation of increase to 6 or 7 (seven is about 2400 meters per second).

However, the weapon in BT is a gauss (coil gun) and no experimental research on achievable velocity (the DARPA mortar project is not a comparably high velocity weapon) is publicly available (feel free to correct me on that if you have access to such). So, you might be right or not. I'll let you have the last word.

Edited by cmopatrick, 12 February 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[RogueSpear]

Sorry, you're entirely correct on the naval test being in miles per hour rather than metres, I got distracted while I was copying information over.

As for coilguns, if memory serves the Russians managed to achieve roughly 5km/s speeds in under a centimetre of coil and the French have been experimenting with the design in the '00s. I believe (but haven't been able to find any references online I'd consider reliable) that they managed to accelerate a 5g mass at a muzzle velocity approaching Mach 10 but at less than 30% efficiency. While it's certainly much like the DARPA mortar in that it's not remotely close to being weaponizable in 2014, by 3031 I'm sure they'll have worked something out. Regardless, in a Rule of Cool universe where dropships that literally could not achieve lift are standard fair and solar energy is a more efficient method of recharging a Jump Drive than a fusion reactor, I think we can agree that the laws of physics don't precisely apply.

[Hex Pallett]

I just want to say that I'm reading you guy's Midale RP, and despite the fact that I know almost nothing regarding BT lore, you guys' writing is every bit as entertaining as the two thousand average "bestseller" flooding the market, if not more.

[Sparks Murphey]

Helmstif, on 13 February 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I just want to say that I'm reading you guy's Midale RP, and despite the fact that I know almost nothing regarding BT lore, you guys' writing is every bit as entertaining as the two thousand average "bestseller" flooding the market, if not more.

Thanks Helmstif, it's heartening to know that others are getting enjoyment out of this too!

[dal10]

there should be m4 shermans and panzer IVs out there. they have battletech record sheets.

ftp://york.chatterwe...XTRO%201945.pdf

[Thom Frankfurt]

Spokes, on 12 February 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Oh, Barrier Armor Rating. I thought you were talking about a Browning Auto Rifle.

Don't mind me, I'm a little slow.

Wrong BAR, friend.

[Thom Frankfurt]

dal10, on 13 February 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

there should be m4 shermans and panzer IVs out there. they have battletech record sheets.

ftp://york.chatterwe...XTRO%201945.pdf

Yeah but there aren't enough of them left to even try pulling some fluff out of your hinny that a bunch ended up getting shipped off world... Though it would be cool.

Helmstif, on 13 February 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I just want to say that I'm reading you guy's Midale RP, and despite the fact that I know almost nothing regarding BT lore, you guys' writing is every bit as entertaining as the two thousand average "bestseller" flooding the market, if not more.

Thanks dude!! It's always nice to hear some comments (especially nice ones) from the other members of the forum.

[dal10]

well if you were desperate enough for armor. any place that could manufacture cars could build them.

[cmopatrick]

@Thom, I've left you the option of telling me what happens with my first long range shot. If I don't hear otherwise, I'll make the call myself, but I'm fine with you rolling for hit and damage.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Got a couple more post to get everything up to current.