10 replies to this topic

[Choppah]

If the objective of GH was to stop high pinpoint alpha builds, then why not punish high pinpoint alpha builds with GH? My solution is to transform GH to only affect any pinpoint weapon (ballistics, PPC) whose combined alpha is over a certain number.

Example: Let's say this theoretical pinpoint alpha limit is 30, and the penalty is 10% more heat every damage point you go over the limit. Ok so 6 PPC (60 heat) stalker fired an alpha, that is 60 damage total and 30 over the limit. 30 * 10 = 300%. 60 heat + 300% = 180 heat. Current GH value would be 167.1 heat, which is pit nicking since you have already shutdown and/or exploded either way.

2 AC20 (12 heat) jagermech fires an alpha. That is 40 damage total and 10 over the limit. 10 * 10 = 100%. 12 heat + 100% = 24 heat. Current GH value would be 23.52 heat.

I think this is a much simpler system to understand (with ingame warnings of course) and to do the math for. It also exempts some ballistics which don't need a penalty, like the AC2, unless you were firing over the limit. And if you do fire slightly over the limit, the penalty is not staggering.

IM 2 AC10, 1 PPC, 1 AC2, I know this build is terrible but it is just an example. In this case it is 2 damage over the limit. 2 * 10 = 20%. 17 heat + 20% = 20.4 heat. So yeah, not a huge increase, and you are unlikely to alpha constantly with this build (or even use it) anyway.

Some may disagree with the percentage increase and/or the limit. Those can change (I would stick with 10% because that is easy to do in your head), but the end result is the same. As long as this is explained in the Mechlab about the penalties, then it should be easier to understand than regular GH. You still can't have crazy high pinpoint alpha builds, no more ballistics > all meta, lasers are not horribly punished, and no more odd inclusions of weapons. Basing GH on the pinpoint damage done, not the weapon used, is more logical and doesn't punish certain weapons into oblivion (like the AC2, and large lasers).

Edited by Choppah, 24 November 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree. This was one of the original suggestions - to pair ghost heat on damage at 20 damage. Our concern was exactly what is happening now, the meta shifts to the pairing that achieves the same objectives of say a dual ac/20 in damage & flight time, but uses weapons like the dual ppc/ac20 build.

by penalizing any shot over 20 damage you shift the game more towards the layered damage PGI wants to achieve without the ability for some combos to basically negate the penalty.

At this point though the oddity is more that PGI put ghost heat in because it would make future adjustments possible, but they havent touched the 40 damage alphas of the dual PPC ac/20 combo or the 30 point alphas other builds can achieve to help with the layering of damage some more.

[Sandpit]

So you're saying only pinpoint damage weapons should be affected by heat penalties for boating?

Me no likey. I think the current mechanic works fine in my opinion. It is an alpha deterrent more than a boating deterrent. Don't fire off every weapon you have every time you click the button and it really doesn't affect you much

[C E Dwyer]

the ac 2 isn't pushed into oblivion is used frequenty its used on battle masters victors in pairs, triples its used on jeagermasters alot

neither are large lasers, with the exception of LPL

What heat scale has done is increased the balistic meta,

what wopuld have cured the problem is simply restricing what mechs can carry what kind of weapons..like ummm a small foot bridge isn't a good place for a 12 tonne lorry, neither should certain mechs beable to handle certain weapons types and numbers of said weapon should also be restricted..open customisation is the real criminal here, not, heat scale or the methods it uses

[Sandpit]

I also don't remember ghost heat ever having been toted as a pinpoint deterrent

[Choppah]

Sandpit, on 24 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

So you're saying only pinpoint damage weapons should be affected by heat penalties for boating?

Me no likey. I think the current mechanic works fine in my opinion. It is an alpha deterrent more than a boating deterrent. Don't fire off every weapon you have every time you click the button and it really doesn't affect you much

But it isn't a alpha deterrent, LRM 20s are punished but not LRM 5s. If I fire 2 LRM 20s and 1 LRM 10, I get ghost heat. If I fire 2 LRM 20s and 2 LRM5s for the same damage, but there is no GH. All these weapon combos and exclusions are confusing. Plus, missiles are not pinpoint. Getting hit with a 3 LRM 20 hurts (66 damage), but getting hit with 6 PPC (60 damage) is devastating. It would instantly core a lot of mechs in 1 alpha, and by 2nd shot you are toast. Whereas with the LRM60, the damage is spread all over your mech and there is also ECM and AMS to consider.

Cathy, on 24 November 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

the ac 2 isn't pushed into oblivion is used frequenty its used on battle masters victors in pairs, triples its used on jeagermasters alot

Yes I do see and use AC2 as well, however it is a weapon which doesn't need any more cons. For 6 tons you do 6 damage and 3 heat every 1.5 seconds. An AC5 does 5 damage and 1 heat in the same time for only 2 tons more. The trade off is built into the weapon itself.

Quote

neither are large lasers, with the exception of LPL

Again, I do use large lasers too, but all versions of the LL have become secondary weapons. The beam duration is thier balance for being hitscan and light weight. You have to really like LL to want to use more than two. This is another group of weapons that doesn't need another con.

Quote

What heat scale has done is increased the balistic meta,

what wopuld have cured the problem is simply restricing what mechs can carry what kind of weapons..like ummm a small foot bridge isn't a good place for a 12 tonne lorry, neither should certain mechs beable to handle certain weapons types and numbers of said weapon should also be restricted..open customisation is the real criminal here, not, heat scale or the methods it uses

In the end I agree on hardpoint limits with the ability to crit split. However, it is unlikely the devs are going to remove GH, so at least they can adjust it to make sense and actually work correctly.

Edited by Choppah, 24 November 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Best thing to do with Ghost Heat is get rid of it completely. What it does and will always do is remove Energy mechs from playability based on how much payload they can carry. Currently Ghost Heat sets the cut-off point at around 65 tons. Energy Mechs larger than this will not be able to scale up in loadouts, but Ballistic Mechs will. So, when we actually get to competitive gameplay instead of just PUGs no one will use 70 ton and up Mechs that are restricted to mostly Energy loadouts.

The flaw is that Energy weapons already generate lots of Heat so heat nerfs like Ghost Heat hit them doubly hard. Apparently PGI can't fix this imbalance of Ghost Heat.

[Choppah]

Lightfoot, on 24 November 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Best thing to do with Ghost Heat is get rid of it completely. What it does and will always do is remove Energy mechs from playability based on how much payload they can carry. Currently Ghost Heat sets the cut-off point at around 65 tons. Energy Mechs larger than this will not be able to scale up in loadouts, but Ballistic Mechs will. So, when we actually get to competitive gameplay instead of just PUGs no one will use 70 ton and up Mechs that are restricted to mostly Energy loadouts.

The flaw is that Energy weapons already generate lots of Heat so heat nerfs like Ghost Heat hit them doubly hard. Apparently PGI can't fix this imbalance of Ghost Heat.

Let's try and keep on topic, there are already a dozen remove GH threads. I don't agree with GH, but if we are stuck with it, might as well try to find a more logical and less confusing way to implement it.

[Sandpit]

Lightfoot, on 24 November 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Best thing to do with Ghost Heat is get rid of it completely. What it does and will always do is remove Energy mechs from playability based on how much payload they can carry.

STALKER STK5M

126 matches
61 wins
65 losses
.94 w/l ratio

91 kills
73 deaths
1.25 KDR

That's a 5LL build. If I can do that then the entire argument of "Ghost heat makes large energy boats and builds useless/unplayable/broken/etc." invalid.

Ghost heat doesn't prevent energy boats at all. It doesn't make them useless. It doesn't make them ineffective. If all of these statements about ghost heat were true it would be impossible for me to post stats like that.

I have similar stats in my Bmaster 4LL build as well. I also have a 3PPC Tbolt that would beg to differ with those statements.

If a player can't adjust and use it, I can understand that. That doesn't mean anything is "broken" though. I can't use LRMs real well, I'm just not that kind of pilot, that doesn't mean they're "broken" simply because I'm not real good at using them.

[Sandpit]

Choppah, on 24 November 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

find a more logical and less confusing way to implement it.

Now THIS? This i can agree with. Ghost heat is a VERY complicated mechanic. Hardcore Btech fans who understand heat, weapons, alphas, the way the system works in general have a hard time really understanding it. That tells me that the average player, especially new and casual, are going to go cross-eyed trying to understand it. When you need a lengthy and complex explanation for a player/customer to understand something, that's usually not a good sign.

We're not talking complex coding issues and such. We are talking about something that directly impacts how you play the game and build your mechs. There's no excuse or reason for seemingly going out of your way to to confuse the players. It also sets up new players to fail and get discouraged. A new player looks at the stats of a weapon in the mech lab, looks at their heat index and thinks "OK this will be a cool mech to use!". They then drop in game and overheat 6 times wondering what's going on. Why? Because PGI has done a HORRIBLE job at explaining stuff like this to players and making it easily accessible to the entire community. You cannot find this information without visiting the forums.

[Choppah]

Sandpit, on 24 November 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Now THIS? This i can agree with. Ghost heat is a VERY complicated mechanic. Hardcore Btech fans who understand heat, weapons, alphas, the way the system works in general have a hard time really understanding it. That tells me that the average player, especially new and casual, are going to go cross-eyed trying to understand it. When you need a lengthy and complex explanation for a player/customer to understand something, that's usually not a good sign.

We're not talking complex coding issues and such. We are talking about something that directly impacts how you play the game and build your mechs. There's no excuse or reason for seemingly going out of your way to to confuse the players. It also sets up new players to fail and get discouraged. A new player looks at the stats of a weapon in the mech lab, looks at their heat index and thinks "OK this will be a cool mech to use!". They then drop in game and overheat 6 times wondering what's going on. Why? Because PGI has done a HORRIBLE job at explaining stuff like this to players and making it easily accessible to the entire community. You cannot find this information without visiting the forums.

This is exactly why I posted the formula in the op. Anyone can add 10% in their head. 7 + 10% = add a . and another 7 and you are golden. I'm sure GH made sense on paper after many weeks and months of discussion. In game, it is way too hard to figure out with enemy mechs firing at you. ATM, I just watch the heat bar and stop firing if I am close to overheating. The only build I have that can generate GH is this STK-3F GH 4 LL.


Oh, and to all those who say lasers and missiles be included:

That build is a 60 alpha (39 heat). With GH as it is now, that would be 53.42 heat if alpha'd. With my system that is 30 over the limit. 10 * 30 = 300%. 39 heat * 300% = 117 heat.

I have to chain fire this build as it is, unless I am at long range. I would only alpha from near 0 heat with a enemy suddenly infront with an exposed section. With GH it can be done. With my system, shutdown and possibly death. Lasers aren't a problem now, you can torso twist to spread damage and even without GH they are still hot. Plus, they give away your position, making them terrible sniping weapons. I have no problems with this build STK-3F 6 ERLL being GH free. I could see a case for pulse lasers, but their extra weight and reduced range is a sufficient balance. Pinpoint is the problem, nobody wants to play a MW game where you can get instantly cored from a poptart or ridge humper who only has to expose his mech for a second.