49 replies to this topic

[Crusbbcc]

Dear all, I think most of us have a long connection to Battletech(BT) and MW and want the clans to be implemented close to the original game.

I have seen threads in here how to nerf clan tech so that it is still comparable in effectiveness to Inner Sphere(IS) technology. I think this is the wrong take - and it is not even necessary as there are easy ways to make clan technology as strong as is supposed to be and not break the game balance. Let me sketch out a simple one and I ask you all to add to it and show alternative approaches. I hope the developers read the thread and use it to make the game the customers want.

One simple way is using the unit system available in the BT universe have companies of 12 IS mechs fight two stars (10) of OmniMechs for PUGs. If that's not enough why not have the system drop in a IS lance reforcement (4) within the first 5 minutes of a fight? That could even reduce wait times for pug matches and give additional strategic options. Why not implement the clan bidding system for non PUGs? Lets stay true and consistent and have the IS beat the clans with skill and Numbers!

Thanks for the consideration,

Crus

[pbiggz]

Balancing has to be with technology. If they get clan tech level with IS tech, there is no need to alter numbers, but if they alter numbers, clan tech is still unbalanced. It sidesteps the issue, it doesn't solve it. The tech is what must be balanced.

[Crusbbcc]

I understand you point. What I think is that in the BT universe of course clan tech ich unbalanced, stronger weapons, better Xl engines,....
So what, make everything identical? I don't think that's the way to go, we need diversity !

[Felix Dante]

Crusbbcc, on 22 October 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

One simple way is using the unit system available in the BT universe have companies of 12 IS mechs fight two stars (10) of OmniMechs for PUGs.

I've said the same thing many times! A IS Company vs. a Clan Binary (2 Stars worth of Mechs) has always been a easy way to balance a game since tabletop.

If you question this...how often have you moaned over asingle disconnect or two during a match?
Thinking you have "already lost" because of that?

Sure they have superior technology, and if you are stupid enough to challenge a Clanner face to face in a Inner Sphere mech, alone, you are surely toast of some sort.

I would add however, that the Clanners do not tend to be Assault heavy (except clan Ghost Bear I think) and a slightly lower tonnage limit could be placed on any Clan groups playing as well. This can easily represent the Clan bidding system (Smaller/Lighter Forces = Greater Risk and potentially More Prestige basically...although avoiding waste is actually the primary concern for bidding). They could even get a tonnage bonus for being lighter. For every ton their group is lighter than their group limit = Extra C-Bills/XP of some sort per person.

Numbers and overall weight can mean a big difference IF people play as a team. Clanners (and those who prefer to use Clan Tech) think they are the "Baddass of the Battlefield" and tend to fight like that. Which will just get them killed faster every time against those that stick together and work together..

[Crusbbcc]

Dante, I fully agree with what you write. Let's keep it close to the table top, clans have more advanced technology and that should be represented in MWO. All this whining and equalizing isn't making the game better...it's making it worse. Let's enjoy the difference of technology and compensate with numbers and weight limitation, I really like your weight / bidding idea and hope our developers pick it up!

[Dugra Dugrasson]

Get rid of everything "ER" in the Clan arsenal.

No more CERPPCs. Just CPPCs. No more CERMLs. Just CMLs. Tweak heat as necessary.

No swapping out engines on Omnis. No reassigning armor values on Omnis.

Penalties for stacking the same weapon type inside Omni slots more than say... Twice.

Edited by nodebate, 23 October 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[pbiggz]

nodebate, on 23 October 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Get rid of everything "ER" in the Clan arsenal.

No more CERPPCs. Just CPPCs. No more CERMLs. Just CMLs. Tweak heat as necessary.

No swapping out engines on Omnis. No reassigning armor values on Omnis.

Penalties for stacking the same weapon type inside Omni slots more than say... Twice.

And suddenly clan tech is much closer to balanced. If you have logical restrictions on omni mechs, obvious tradeoffs for clan weapons, and clan equipment that is puretech only (no clan case, double heat sinks, etc on your IS mechs) then there is no need to numerically balance, and as i said before. Numerical balancing is not nearly robust enough. It sidesteps the issue, it does not solve it.

Edited by pbiggz, 23 October 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

mwhighlander, on 23 October 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

The killing blow to this thought on balancing is, it is a very round-about non-solution. Two major points...

First being Mercenaries will be allowed to field Clan Mechs with only cost being a restriction. 10 Clanners v 12 Mercs with all Clan tech won't work. "Top Tier" Merc Units will undoubtedly have the resources and funds to be able to field Clan Tech with no real issue. Limiting 10v12 Clan v IS serves only as a nostalgic canon based buff to Mercenaries seeking to claim Clan worlds. MechWarrior may take place in the BT universe, but for the sake of PvP balance, many concepts must be let go.

Second is that there are more objective based game modes being produced for CW, where inherit power from weapons are not as important. Being at a number disadvantage in objected oriented game modes as opposed to the pseudo TDM's we have now will simply make Clanners at such an inherit disadvantage...

...we all know that outside these forums where true Clanner RP's live, players will go towards Clan Tech because it is superior, and nothing else. Honor is fighting an uphill battle will fall on def ears when it comes to the tryhards. A solution to balancing out Clan v IS must be found elsewhere than stacking numbers.

Balancing Clan Tech Equipment, Omni's, and Weapons are the way to go, not artificial balance through numbers. MechWarrior is not an RPG where such concepts can balance things, only in a TT RPG environment like Battletech can such a solution be viable.

The suggestion to keep Clan Tech as brokenly OP as in TT will cause so many problems to begin with. Other than invalidating half of the games concept in a single swoop is bad enough.

Artificial balance that may work in a RPG TT game, will not work in a FPS real time environment.
The end result of this is the majority of players will be in wealthy Merc Units that can field 12 Clan mechs.

This thought process that such a half-baked idea that barely worked in TT will work in MechWarrior needs to end. It will only cause even more problems than the game currently has.

[Crusbbcc]

mwhighlander, on 23 October 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

Artificial balance that may work in a RPG TT game, will not work in a FPS real time environment.
The end result of this is the majority of players will be in wealthy Merc Units that can field 12 Clan mechs.

This thought process that such a half-baked idea that barely worked in TT will work in MechWarrior needs to end. It will only cause even more problems than the game currently has.

Thanks to all for the good comments and suggestions.

Highlander, I disagree that what worked in TT will not work in MWO.
Why not? Of course numerical superiority and tactics/teamplay can beat technological disadvantages.
This is not a FPS, this is a Mech simulation. People who don't get that may be more happy in hawken.

I remember well when the clans appeared in TT it was a shock at first. But a really refreshing one. Don't you guys want a challenge?

Also what is the point of the clans if they are not superior? Just a variation of mech skins and slightly different weapons? Seriously? What would be the point to that? We need life, flavor, differences and challenges here. Get to your cockpits and show these ***** clanners how your old fashioned Ac20 blasts through their cockpit shielding!

Really we have it already slightly evened out, all our IS forces have xl engines, and are far from lostech!

[Dugra Dugrasson]

It's no an issue of challenge, realism, or reward, Crusbbcc. It's a question of what makes a marketable game. A new player to MWO and/or a new player to the BT Universe isn't going to willingly play an IS 'Mech if he knows there are Clan 'Mechs which are numerically superior to the IS 'Mechs.

[CyclonerM]

nodebate, on 23 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It's no an issue of challenge, realism, or reward, Crusbbcc. It's a question of what makes a marketable game. A new player to MWO and/or a new player to the BT Universe isn't going to willingly play an IS 'Mech if he knows there are Clan 'Mechs which are numerically superior to the IS 'Mechs.

This is what you get when you are forced to make a game for the masses of players who grew up with CoD. I am young but i feel quite different from this kind of "player"..

[Dugra Dugrasson]

CyclonerM, on 23 October 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is what you get when you are forced to make a game for the masses of players who grew up with CoD. I am young but i feel quite different from this kind of "player"..

You can't blame it all on Call of Duty. It's an iteration of game theory. It's been going on well before CoD.

Edited by nodebate, 23 October 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[CyclonerM]

nodebate, on 23 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

You can't blame it all on Call of Duty. It's an iteration of game theory. It's been going on well before CoD.

I may also talk about Hawnen, a closer example to MWO.. I am not so old , but it seemed to me that in the past things were different and money was not always the most important thing .. The Publisher didn't seem to be so aggressive.. But this may be wrong. Passion pays..

[Dugra Dugrasson]

CyclonerM, on 23 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

I may also talk about Hawnen, a closer example to MWO.. I am not so old , but it seemed to me that in the past things were different and money was not always the most important thing .. The Publisher didn't seem to be so aggressive.. But this may be wrong. Passion pays..

I won't deny that publishers trump game studios however, regardless of publisher, the player always wants to feel 'powerful.' The Clan are at a glance more 'powerful' than the IS. It's an easy choice to go for what is perceived as 'best.' That's why you get things like 'tier lists' and 'flavor of the month.'

[CyclonerM]

nodebate, on 23 October 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

I won't deny that publishers trump game studios however, regardless of publisher, the player always wants to feel 'powerful.' The Clan are at a glance more 'powerful' than the IS. It's an easy choice to go for what is perceived as 'best.' That's why you get things like 'tier lists' and 'flavor of the month.'

What i hope and know is that passionate people who play this game because is (should be? ) a MechWarrior game, based on Battletech may fight for their favourite faction, even if you cannot have the best powa tech.. I feel one of them.

[Crusbbcc]

nodebate, on 23 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

It's no an issue of challenge, realism, or reward, Crusbbcc. It's a question of what makes a marketable game. A new player to MWO and/or a new player to the BT Universe isn't going to willingly play an IS 'Mech if he knows there are Clan 'Mechs which are numerically superior to the IS 'Mechs.

CyclonerM, on 23 October 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

This is what you get when you are forced to make a game for the masses of players who grew up with CoD. I am young but i feel quite different from this kind of "player"..

Nodebate, I agree that in the end the game has to be profitable. Yet I think there are a lot of real fans for BT/MW and also we shouldn't underestimate the young generation. Just because mentally shallow games like cod are successful, we should not assume that people are not capable of more and can enjoy something more complex. I mean just because in the stone age guys were just jumping up and down shouting "ugh ugh" and the one who could throw a stone best at the next guys head got the nicest girls did not mean that was the end of the evolution - right ? So there is hope even for limited Codlers ... More about this below.

Also I am convinced there are better options than shallowing MW down to yet another shooter where all is the same, lights need to get as many kills as assaults, all weapons need to be equal, clan and IS is to be similar,...?!?


Great! Look we have one here! A former Codler who is actually thinking and not just spastically pressing mode buttons! MW has to offer so much more, and more rewarding fun.

Cycloner, carry the message to your friends that there is more than throwing sones at people's heads !

[CyclonerM]

Crusbbcc, on 23 October 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Great! Look we have one here! A former Codler who is actually thinking and not just spastically pressing mode buttons! MW has to offer so much more, and more rewarding fun.

Cycloner, carry the message to your friends that there is more than throwing sones at people's heads !

Aff! There are other people who try to spread the word, but when you see how many people play only tiny Facebook games you start thinking there is no way to save videogames.

Do not get me wrong, i like very much arcade games like Battlefield (which i actually thinks is still made with a bit of passion) but when a series gives us emotions with great character and fascinating storyline and general plot (Assassin's Creed and BT/MW? ) i hate having the impression the newest games are easier and easier and are less and less focused on what made them great (Assassin's Creed. And BT/MW).

I really hope CW will help taking this game back in his rightful place after the MechWarrior games of the past..

[Crusbbcc]

Aff again! But I still have hope! Look at another example, similar to MWO, Star Citizen, they used kickstarter to raise 500k and revive Wing Commander / Privateer. They got over 2 million instead of the 500k and by now 24 million to develop the game. There is still a lot of room an interest for games that are not just mass market and targeting everybody.
Have a look at the intro...they said compley pc geames are dead, they said space simulations are dead

https://robertsspace.../about-the-game

[dal10]

only game i have heard of to basically say "pock you, i am making the best game i can" to low end machine users.

[CyclonerM]

Crusbbcc, on 24 October 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Aff again! But I still have hope! Look at another example, similar to MWO, Star Citizen, they used kickstarter to raise 500k and revive Wing Commander / Privateer. They got over 2 million instead of the 500k and by now 24 million to develop the game. There is still a lot of room an interest for games that are not just mass market and targeting everybody.
Have a look at the intro...they said compley pc geames are dead, they said space simulations are dead

This will have success indeed because it has no publishers..