269 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

Cathy, on 29 November 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

staying at about 400 meters cures this and staying outside its max range is even better

AC 20 at 400 m with triple range ballistics = 14.8 damage. Thats no cure ...


Maybe you take a look at the damage of an ac 20 and an ac 10 at 540m?

ac20 540m = 10 damage
ac 10 540m = 9 damage.


At 400m range, the ac 10 and ac 20 should be equal both doing 10 damage, above this range, the ac 10 gets better, the ac 20 worse. But for this we need 2x ballistics.

The triple ballistic range destroys weaponbalance overall and in the ballistic group.

Edited by Galenit, 29 November 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Mad Cow Jenkins]

I´ve been running a boom jaeger a fair deal in recent time and can attest to that 300 is not where it becomes ineffecient but just before 400m, which is quite hard to stay away when your opponent moves with 86. The thing that is terrible with the AC40 is that it makes a bloodbath out of mechs that are 50 tons or less. One shotting them is fairly common, you have all the time in the world because they have no chance of dealing enough damage to you; slowly aim and boom dead opponent.
Against 70+ tons the situation changes because they can take the damage and hit you back destroying that side torso, before you pop them, which makes it into a race.
The AC20 will always be a problem in this game and the ghost heat attests to it, that will go really bad with UAC20. Its really odd that they don´t make all AC to a tiny spread pellets (not LB10x spread), where the size would be around the size of a commando's head. That will have no effect against heavies and assaults, if not going for headshot but give a bit of a chance to mediums and lights.

[Ezazel]

Oh come on stop crying for the nerfs. I hate it when every weapon gets nerfed one by one. OP, you realize that if AC20 gets nerfed today, tomorrow there will be the next fotm weapon. It won't make your position any better.

[Almond Brown]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'd agree for the most part but the damage really should drop off a bit more at that distance.

Why? It does 50% damage at that range, just like every other Ballistic weapon. Is 10pts out to 50% more than optimal range to much for a 20pt base damage weapon?

If so, then I want the AC10's 50% damage out to 900m reduced as well.

Why? Just because.

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

and those of us that don't think ACs are op now?

EDIT: Typos

Would not ask to have the AC20's damage drop off be increased over the other AC's, that are also not OP...

[HighTest]

The problem isn't with the AC20 -- it's with the maps. Especially in PUG matches.

Most PUG matches usually see both teams running headlong at each other, and they ultimately tend to degrade into a brawlfest. Which is exactly where the AC20 excels. A lot of the map designs favour the brawl, as they tend to offer tons of buildings, hills and cover in general. So by the time the 2 groups have engaged, it tends to be at brawling range, where the AC20 rules the roost.

The only maps that offer any real long-range capability before the big brawlfest are Alpine Peaks and to some degree Forest Colony and Canyon Network. (Sure, there are spots on other maps, but most people are smart enough not to go there and stand in the open, instead keeping to cover while they close distance).

Now, if there were more maps with open plains or large expanses where you could use direct-fire weapons at long range, then the use for the AC20 would diminish. In fact, they might not even make it to AC20 range before they are picked apart by PPCs, AC2s and AC5s, and to some degree LRMs. We just don't have many of those maps right now.

No weapon, no loadout and no mech is over-powered for every situation. Balance is purely only relative to the situation it's being used in.

Don't tweak the weapon. We just need more maps and combat situations where other weapons are better-suited than the AC20.

[Corvus Antaka]

HighTest, on 29 November 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Don't tweak the weapon. We just need more maps and combat situations where other weapons are better-suited than the AC20.

This too.

[Navy Sixes]

Nubsternator, on 26 November 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

Staying out of range would be possible if the maps were larger or if Mechs could move fast enough before you get wasted by the ac20. In theory, yea, being out of it's range is a good idea. In practice it's much harder. There are few opportunities to get away from someone safely.

How much grief do we hear every time PGI drops a big map? Mediums and lights don't have much of a problem moving fast enough. Seems to me the problem is less about the AC20 or the maps or their speed. The problem is that everyone wants to run the biggest and slowest mech possible. Yeah, you've got all those guns. You're also a derpy-moving, house-sized bullseye.

That's called a "trade off."... say it with me...

[HighTest]

Tycho von Gagern, on 29 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

How much grief do we hear every time PGI drops a big map? Mediums and lights don't have much of a problem moving fast enough. Seems to me the problem is less about the AC20 or the maps or their speed. The problem is that everyone wants to run the biggest and slowest mech possible. Yeah, you've got all those guns. You're also a derpy-moving, house-sized bullseye.

That's called a "trade off."... say it with me...

Yup, this makes sense too. And is one of the reasons I almost never run assault mechs in MWO, personally.

[Odins Fist]

Let's just NERF the range on ALL weapons down to 150 meters.. There ya go..!! Are you people serious..??
Go get your Frigging shine box.

Edited by Odins Fist, 29 November 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Bront]

Mystere, on 26 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Is this another one of those "I got killed by XXX, please nerf XXX" threads?

I'm just asking.

Flamers need a nerf!

[Urdasein]

HighTest, on 29 November 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

The problem isn't with the AC20 -- it's with the maps. Especially in PUG matches.

Most PUG matches usually see both teams running headlong at each other, and they ultimately tend to degrade into a brawlfest. Which is exactly where the AC20 excels. A lot of the map designs favour the brawl, as they tend to offer tons of buildings, hills and cover in general. So by the time the 2 groups have engaged, it tends to be at brawling range, where the AC20 rules the roost.

YUP !

And add a UAV in the middle of the brawl to make your team aware of everything + counter any ECM (lrms are marginal help but appreciated for cockpit shaking / panic mode). UAV is more useful than artillery imho and often lead to victory.

Not to mention that all other weapons are WEAK, damage wise and "cockpit shake/blind wise". A guy hit by ac20 is hurt AND can't shoot for a sec. That don't happen with dual toaster PPC.

I enjoy sometime playing with 4 ERlarge laser stalker... Just for fun. It runs really cool with 24DHS but it is not such a threat with it 18 sprayed damage per salvo and mediocre 8 dps. Not to mention that your position is seen by everyone ^ ^

Edited by loupgaroupoilu, 29 November 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[verybad]

Mechs are the most powerful ground fighting unit in this game. It's not realistic for every player to have one. Instead there need to be infantrymen that can be killed by anything during the game, even a heart attack if they run up a steep hill!

[Kin3ticX]

Galenit, on 29 November 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

[/size]

Maybe you take a look at the damage of an ac 20 and an ac 10 at 540m?

ac20 540m = 10 damage
ac 10 540m = 9 damage.

Look at the damage per ton.

AC10 540M = 9 Damage........... 135 damage per ton
AC20 540M = 10 Damage......... 70 damage per ton

AC10 600 meters = 8.33 damage...... 124.9 damage per ton
AC20 600 meters = 7.78....................54.4 damage per ton

AC10 700 Meters = 6.67................100 damage per ton
AC20 700 Meters = 4.07..................28 damage per ton

Edited by Kin3ticX, 29 November 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[Pwnocchio]

AC/20 is very good. It's fun. This is precisely how it was in Battletech canon.

I think a better idea that nerfing the AC/20 would be to make things like Pulse Lasers a little better and more fun, and similarly just fixing the hit detection/damage on SRM's.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 29 November 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Why? It does 50% damage at that range, just like every other Ballistic weapon. Is 10pts out to 50% more than optimal range to much for a 20pt base damage weapon?

If so, then I want the AC10's 50% damage out to 900m reduced as well.

Tyhat is actually a good suggestion, and as an AC enthusiast I can support this.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why? It does 50% damage at that range, just like every other Ballistic weapon. Is 10pts out to 50% more than optimal range to much for a 20pt base damage weapon?

The AC/20 doing 10 points at 540m is largely responsible for the AC/10 being obsolete.

Because the AC/20 is only 2 tons more than the AC/10, does the same damage at 540m, AND you can only have two AC/10s anyway (only one mech in the game can have three AC/10s), so theres no reason not to use AC/20s instead.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 29 November 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

The AC/20 doing 10 points at 540m is largely responsible for the AC/10 being obsolete.

Because the AC/20 is only 2 tons more than the AC/10, does the same damage at 540m, AND you can only have two AC/10s anyway (only one mech in the game can have three AC/10s), so theres no reason not to use AC/20s instead.

Theoretically, the higher rate of fire would still give the AC/10 a leg up, but in practice, it doesn't seem to work out that way. I'd suspect it might also have something to do with what rate of fire you can actually sustain at long ranges if you actually try to hit.

I think the AC/20 and AC/10 are in the "sweet spot" range interval that players tend to have good accuracy and where also unobstructed sight lines exist so you can fight there often - and the AC/20 has a decent advantage the closer you get.

[Ecto Cooler]

Odins Fist, on 29 November 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Go get your Frigging shine box.

Pwnocchio, on 29 November 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

AC/20 is very good. It's fun. This is precisely how it was in Battletech canon.

I think a better idea that nerfing the AC/20 would be to make things like Pulse Lasers a little better and more fun, and similarly just fixing the hit detection/damage on SRM's.

This ^^ -- improve what we have to add variety, not limit what works.

So let's say we listen to the OP and nerf the AC/20, tomorrow he'll be starting a thread to nerf the AC/10. It's a vicious cycle that never ends.

I don't understand how I read so many, "Nerf this!" threads daily. Do people not have any foresight?

Edited by Ecto Cooler, 30 November 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Khobai, on 26 November 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

what PGI needs to do: make AC/20s fire in bursts to spread damage around evenly

what PGI will end up doing: increasing heat on AC/20s and increasing ghost heat on dual AC/20s.

hahhaah dont say it they might actually do this

[GODzillaGSPB]

AC/20 + two ppcs and there you have the current meta. Oh, add jump jets. And THAT'S why people now suddenly cry about the ac/20 being too powerful. When people pleaded with PGI to give the charge to the PPC and just add a min range to the Gauss they didn't listen. It had to happen. It would be funny if if wasn't so sad.

PGI-logic will probably do this next: No weapon fire on jumpjet use. Will flush mechs like the Shadow Hawk right down the toilet. Because...PGI! And because doing the reasonable thing would be too easy...