269 replies to this topic

[Gallowglas]

DyDrimer, on 26 November 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

There's a great post on here that break's down the damage AC's do. The AC20 is a strong scary weapon, but true to form with the AC break down my AC5 mechs do a lot more damage then ac20 does. I have started running a uac5/ac5 combo on my victor and it has brought it back from the dead for me. So i don't see were the ac20 is OP, even if you run an ac40, it seems to have to give up way to much just for that punch.

The thing is, the AC/40 is scary at short range, but what do you get more freaked out about: a single AC/20 mech or a 4x AC/5 mech? The issue is less about the individual weapon as it is weapon/fire rate synching.

[Khobai]

what PGI needs to do: make AC/20s fire in bursts to spread damage around evenly

what PGI will end up doing: increasing heat on AC/20s and increasing ghost heat on dual AC/20s.

[Ahja]

I am really surprised that anyone would make a post like this after seeing what they have done to many of the other weapons in the game. They have killed all the high caliber weapons in this version of the game. The Gauss, ERPPC and AC5Ultra. All creative versions of what they should be. That leaves only the AC20. Sooo DO NOT GIVE THEM A REASON! What they have done with weapons at this point have made the battle field a more stale less creative place to be in. I have been thinking as of late that the DEV's should just stop fooling around with weapons from BT/MW and just step up to the plate and make their own line of weapons that are "balanced" in their opinion.

[Sandpit]

I also love how nobody ever bothers to point out that all these damage specs, complex mathematical explanations on how dps is greater if you add the specific combo of weapons, and how OP a weapon is mean absolutely nothing when you miss. All of these "statistics" count on you hitting every shot every time.

You miss with an AC, guess what? You miss. If I miss with that LL, guess what? I still have a chance to walk it in and do some damage. while getting ready to chain fire the next LL in waiting so that it hits all the way through

[Greyboots]

FupDup, on 26 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

The only change the AC/20 might need is to have their maximum range cut down to lower than 810 meters to indirectly help out the AC/10. That's about it.

It's actually not supposed to have the extended range of ballistic weapons. I don't mind that it does as it encourages people to throw AC 20 rounds at me at long range for reduced damage and a lot of misses. I'd rather have that then have them fully ammo'd up after I close in.

There's nothing really "wrong" with the AC 20. Yes, they are powerful and twin AC 20 mechs are annoying as hell. Do what I do. Stop aiming for the center torso and blow the legs off the mech and just wander off on it. Come back later with your mates. A certain brand of players sticks to these mechs because they find it fun to just mow down the opposition with no challenge. So they run twin AC20 jagers with big motors so they can do just that. Don't even try to kill them. Blow the leg off and run off on them, leaving them alive. It will suddenly no longer be fun. They'll be stuck in a crippled mech that's a sitting duck, constantly getting swamped by groups of larger mechs that just mow THEM down. That they don't find fun at all.

These mechs will then disappear. All it takes is a community dedicated to stamping them out.

Edited by Greyboots, 26 November 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Greyboots, on 26 November 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

It's actually not supposed to have the extended range of ballistic weapons. I don't mind that it does as it encourages people to throw AC 20 rounds at me at long range for reduced damage and a lot of misses. I'd rather have that then have them fully ammo'd up after I close in.

There's nothing really "wrong" with the AC 20. Yes, they are powerful and twin AC 20 mechs are annoying as hell. Do what I do. Stop aiming for the center torso and blow the legs off the mech and just wander off on it. Come back later with your mates. A certain brand of players sticks to these mechs because they find it fun to just mow down the opposition with no challenge. So they run twin AC20 jagers with big motors so they can do just that. Don't even try to kill them. Blow the leg off and run off on them, leaving them alive. It will suddenly no longer be fun. They'll be stuck in a crippled mech that's a sitting duck, constantly getting swamped by groups of larger mechs that just mow THEM down. That they don't find fun at all.

These mechs will then disappear. All it takes is a community dedicated to stamping them out.

What Fup and I are saying, though, is that when you can do MORE damage at twice the AC20 range than you can with an AC10 at the max of its normal effective range, there is something wrong with it. AC effective ranges need to be stable enough to where they're not getting screwed by a heavier AC at the same range.

[Gallowglas]

Trauglodyte, on 26 November 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

What Fup and I are saying, though, is that when you can do MORE damage at twice the AC20 range than you can with an AC10 at the max of its normal effective range, there is something wrong with it. AC effective ranges need to be stable enough to where they're not getting screwed by a heavier AC at the same range.

I'd agree, but given the state of both weapons, I'd say it strongly argues that the AC/10 just needs some love. It's better to have 4 effective autocannons than to remove one from the effective list and not really improving the one that's lacking. Nerf the AC/20 and you'd just see more AC/5, UAC/5, and AC/2, not more AC/10's.

Edited by Gallowglas, 26 November 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Clydewinder]

AC10 is about 75% as good as an AC20 - with better ammo capacity, better ballistic performance, higher rate of fire, and a lesser demand on crits and tonnage.

[Victor Morson]

AC/20 is good but not OP; it below the AC/5 for favorable options right now.

Joseph Mallan, on 26 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

AC20 was the most powerful weapon on TT too.

Until Gauss anyway.

[Dirkdaring]

I think its fine. My AC20 jager dies if it gets breathed on, and it useless at range. You have to pilot it very carefully and be fully aware of everything around you. While I've gotten 5 kills in a match with it, I've done even better in my ERPPC/SRM6 stalker which has my highest KDR at 2.04 (466 games).

Want to have a fun game?

Take a JM6-S and put 3 UAC5 and 2 MLs on it. In cycle mode you can hold the mouse button down on the UAC and they won't ever jam.

Edited by Dirkdaring, 26 November 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Asmosis]

If you want to determine the range of engagement, drive a faster mech.

If you insist of driving something at 50-60km/h, then get better situational awareness if you want to only engage at 500m-1km range, or pack some brawling weapons to deal with faster short ranged mechs.

[Rorvik]

Sandpit, on 26 November 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

You miss with an AC, guess what? You miss.

True, but in my experience, both on the giving and receiving end, it doesn't happen too often.

Except when shooting Spiders.

Sandpit, on 26 November 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

If I miss with that LL, guess what? I still have a chance to walk it in and do some damage. while getting ready to chain fire the next LL in waiting so that it hits all the way through

Don't forget that you can spread laser and missile fire all over your mech, where as an AC/40 hit will hit you dead on. You only need to aim ONCE with an AC to get the full effect of the range you are at. Lasers, especially non-pulse lasers, require a painstaking whole second of focus on a particular part before the full damage is applied.

One time, at band camp in Caustic Valley, it took four of us to take down an AC/40 Jager, 'cause the damn guy kept torso twisting like a hula hoop waitress at Hooters, spreading all our lasers and missile fire all over.

[Turist0AT]

VoltarDark, on 26 November 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Hello pilots !

Because in my book the ac20 is by far the best weapon in the game causing it to be too wide spread on the battlefield. (Just try a lance of full of dual ac20 mechs, giving 8 ac20 to see what it can do...)

2 of those beasts can cripple any mechs way too easily under 300m, better then anything else.

At 540m it's still do 10 dmg, the same as an ac10 at long range...It's way to good, for a short range weapon.(forget the «canon law» and think fun here.)

My remedy :

Ac20 : Long range at 180 m for 20 dmg and max range at 540m , add 1 shot by ammo /t so 8 instead of 7.

Now the ac10 have more usefulness and the game is more fun.

This is why we cant have nice things...

[Corvus Antaka]

lol!

[Rorvik]

VoltarDark, on 26 November 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

My remedy :

Ac20 : Long range at 180 m for 20 dmg and max range at 540m , add 1 shot by ammo /t so 8 instead of 7.

A better solution I think would be to swap the maximum distances of ballistics and lasers: laser max range should be 3x optimal range while the ballistics max range should be 2x optimal range.

[Amsro]

Heh, QQ is OP nerf QQ.

Besides I don't even use AC/20 and I win, therefore AC/20 does not = win. Pretty solid chance tho!

[Troutmonkey]

Last night, for about four or five games I saw an AC40 Jager in each of them.

Damn scary, and even killed me once or twice. The trick is to tell your team mates to primary them, because they sure to go down quick, just aim for the shoulders.

[OneEyed Jack]

Piney, on 26 November 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

I drive a Boom Jager every now and then for fun and I can attest to the fact that it's not the almighty easy button "press the trigger for the win" machine some think it is.

If this is the case, it's not because your cannon are too good. It's because your opponents are too bad.

[John MatriX82]

Yes please!
after nerfing DHSs since their introduction
after nerfing SRMs,
nerf every energy weapon through ghost heat,
nerfed the PPCs,
nerfed the GR,
nerfed/buffed/nerfed/screwed/buffed/whatever the LRMs,
nerfing the movement with the archetypes intro,
nerfed flanking maneuvers through seismic and 4 more players introduction,
never made the pulse lasers worth their weight nor heat
yes, it's time to nerf also the AC 20.

Let's go on like this and sooner or later we'll be throwing out sticks at each other! weeeeeee melee weapons finally!!!

What we need is an HARDPOINT RESTRICTION SYSTEM. Cure for chassis and variant variability, cure for the ghost heat (by removing it), cure for boating, cure for LRMs and SRMs and so on..

Edited by John MatriX82, 26 November 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[Alex Warden]

well, i always thought the damage/range ratio was too much for the ac20... i´ll say the evil words now:

canonically spoken, the ac20 is a very shortranged, highdamage weapon and i always felt it should be a closerange counter to the gauss somehow... but that´s just my personal understanding of this weapon