269 replies to this topic

[GroovYChickeN]

John MatriX82, on 26 November 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Yes please!
after nerfing DHSs since their introduction
after nerfing SRMs,
nerf every energy weapon through ghost heat,
nerfed the PPCs,
nerfed the GR,
nerfed/buffed/nerfed/screwed/buffed/whatever the LRMs,
nerfing the movement with the archetypes intro,
nerfed flanking maneuvers through seismic and 4 more players introduction,
never made the pulse lasers worth their weight nor heat
yes, it's time to nerf also the AC 20.

Let's go on like this and sooner or later we'll be throwing out sticks at each other! weeeeeee melee weapons finally!!!

What we need is an HARDPOINT RESTRICTION SYSTEM. Cure for chassis and variant variability, cure for the ghost heat (by removing it), cure for boating, cure for LRMs and SRMs and so on..

^This.

The problem isn't the AC20 or even Dual AC20. If the annihilator was in the game and people where packing dual ac20's. Cool! that's kinda the point of the mech, massive firepower.

The real problem is that mechs are bring to bare firepower that is outside their intended design scope. The Jager was a replacement to the Rifleman. The Rifleman was primarily used for ANTI AIRCRAFT and long range fire support.

[Zordicron]

I would agree with others the max range is too much. It should be reduced. 10 DMG at like 500M is pretty damn potent yet for a weapon balanced in TT by range. When range goes away, the balance goes away. I also would agree with some that this would be an indirect buff of sorts to AC10 as its useful range suddenly becomes relevent for it's tonnage. Right now, for two more tons, you can have an AC20 that does everything an AC10 can, and then double dmg compared to it at short range. For this it gets less ammo, and a bit more heat.

The way the game plays right now, less ammo and a tad more heat is not compensatory for the big dmg big range to go with it. IMO, max range should be 650 instead of 800 for AC20. This allows it to basically fade out where AC10 is still strong, and still allows some overlap of the two. Now the two ton difference doesnt seem so bewildering.

[Taemien]

I'd like to see the range of all the ACs except for the 2s, reduced to their max effective range. AC20 does 20 damage to 270m, but no damage at 271+. Makes sense? Probably not. But to compensate, adjust their rate of fire (AC20 down to 3.5s, AC10 to maybe 1.75) to make them utterly dangerous in their effective ranges. Imagine what a AC10 could do at 1.5 to 1.75 cooldown (heat per second would be the same as now, so a heat per shot reduction would be in order). Then apply heat scaling to keep more than 2x AC10 boats in check. And you've now turned the UP AC10 into a bread and butter weapon of the Autocannon class.

IMO short range weapons (such as AC20s and AC10s) should have short cooldowns compared to high hitting long range weapons like the PPCs and Gauss Rifle. This way when in range of these shorter reaching weapons, the opponent gets wrecked by DPS.

[VoltarDark]

So if i understand it well : Damage stay the same, long range stay the same, but max range is reduced to 540 m.

I think it's a nice compromise.

The ac10 will be happy !

Well thank you for your comments !!!

[Corvus Antaka]

simply lowering the max range on the ac/20 to 540m would be just fine. this would help the gauss come back & be a better balancing point. the ac/20 is too good at long range, and eclipses the ac/10 somewhat because of it.

[-Natural Selection-]

Leg them or side torso shot from range. Problem solved, next.

[Ewigan]

Actually i wouldn't change the max range of the AC/20.
why? Well, if you wanna shoot it for ten or less damage with the bulletdrop, sure go ahead.
you only get 7(8?) shots a ton, so go on and waste your ammo!

The ac/10 is a different topic though. i would up the range of it a bit... but that's about it.

btw: Gauss is still a good weapon, just get used to it.

Edited by Ewigan, 27 November 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Ewigan, on 27 November 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Actually i wouldn't change the may range of the AC/20.
why? Well, if you wanna shoot it for ten or less damage with the bulletdrop, sure go ahead.
you only get 7(8?) shots a ton, so go on and waste your ammo!

The ac/10 is a different topic though. i would up the range of it a bit... but that's about it.

btw: Gauss is still a good weapon, just get used to it.

I roll the hell out of gauss. 500-1k a game and love it. I am glad so many find it to complex to use, because its the best weapon in the game. PLEA$E nerf it, because I will only be stronger.

[Victor Morson]

AC/20 is fine. It's good, it's not top, it is fine.

[MustrumRidcully]

GroovYChickeN, on 26 November 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

^This.

The problem isn't the AC20 or even Dual AC20. If the annihilator was in the game and people where packing dual ac20's. Cool! that's kinda the point of the mech, massive firepower.

The real problem is that mechs are bring to bare firepower that is outside their intended design scope. The Jager was a replacement to the Rifleman. The Rifleman was primarily used for ANTI AIRCRAFT and long range fire support.

Why is it a problem if mechs are used outside of an intended design scope that doesn't exist in MW:O?

There is no anti aircraft support role in MW:O, because there are no aircraft to shoot at.

It's also hardly a balance problem if you can use a long range fire support mech as a close range brawler instead. That might be aesthetically or thematically displeasing, but it's not like the Jagermech Or catapult K2 come with a special ability that works better at close range then at long range.


Don't confuse theme with balance.

[Galenit]

3x ballistic ranges is the main problem in weaponbalancing.

Reduce ballistic to 2x like energyweapons and all 3 weapontypes have matching ranges.

Think about only gauss and ac2 as 1000m weapons matching the erppc and erll.
The ac5, uac5 and ac10 will be midranges and the ac20 will be at 270/540m matching the short range weapons.
Overall a more consistence range field over all weapons witch will solve a lot of problems.

In the moment ballistics have the highes damage, range and lowest heat paying for it with high wigth and ammo that nearly never explodes.

Shells per ton and ammo explosion chance are the two other points that should be looked at for balancing ballistics, letting them the high rof/dps as their unique characteristic.

Edited by Galenit, 27 November 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[stjobe]

Galenit, on 27 November 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Reduce ballistic to 2x like energyweapons and all 3 weapontypes have matching ranges.

Missiles do zero damage above 270m and 1,000m respectively.

Why do ballistic and energy weapons need to do falloff damage between 3x to 2x their effective range?

[Galenit]

stjobe, on 27 November 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

Missiles do zero damage above 270m and 1,000m respectively.

Why do ballistic and energy weapons need to do falloff damage between 3x to 2x their effective range?

Ask the devs why they have done it!

But if you look at all weapons and put the ballistics down to 2x you will see nice overlapping and matching ranges.
5 weapons for around 1000m, some for less then 270 and most in the middle.

http://mwo.gamepedia...ategory:Weapons

[Mudhutwarrior]

I built and ac40 when it was all the rage. Most stupid build out there. If I see one come up in a match I think easy meat. Just stand off and let him have it. Same goes for anything with an ac 20. There are tactics to overcome them. Learn to use your upper right screen and check for their weps loadout and adapt accordingly. I tend to be stupid and go kamikaze when I am bored or its and obvious stomp but in decent matches knowing what I am coming up against is super important. The target info gathering module is a good start to any loadout. Use it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 27 November 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

I built and ac40 when it was all the rage. Most stupid build out there. If I see one come up in a match I think easy meat. Just stand off and let him have it. Same goes for anything with an ac 20. There are tactics to overcome them. Learn to use your upper right screen and check for their weps loadout and adapt accordingly. I tend to be stupid and go kamikaze when I am bored or its and obvious stomp but in decent matches knowing what I am coming up against is super important. The target info gathering module is a good start to any loadout. Use it.

Thing is Mud, there are tactics to counter your tactics. And tactics to counter those tactics. That's the fun of a thinking man's shooter. And the Target gathering Module is on all my Mechs!

[Joseph Mallan]

GroovYChickeN, on 26 November 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

^This.

The problem isn't the AC20 or even Dual AC20. If the annihilator was in the game and people where packing dual ac20's. Cool! that's kinda the point of the mech, massive firepower.

The real problem is that mechs are bring to bare firepower that is outside their intended design scope. The Jager was a replacement to the Rifleman. The Rifleman was primarily used for ANTI AIRCRAFT and long range fire support.

So you would stop players from making a Useless Anti-Air Mech into a formidable battlefield unit? You may want to read the Variants listed Such as the DG with its twin Gauss. Heck the Chassis even got a tonnage boost just so it could be made a better ground pounder!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 November 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

AC20 was the most powerful weapon on TT too.

Not even close. AC20 had pathetic range in TT which made it one of the worst weapons.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 27 November 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Not even close. AC20 had pathetic range in TT which made it one of the worst weapons.

Did I say it was the longest range Khobai? Or did I say it was the most powerful? Only on a roll of 11 or 12 did an LRM20 match the damage potential of an AC20, and the AC did all its harm to one location. The Best weapon was either the Gauss or the Clan ERPPC. But they still did 5 points less than an AC20.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 November 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Mycrus]

i'll file this thread under "L2P"

[Caswallon]

Ahja, on 26 November 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

I am really surprised that anyone would make a post like this after seeing what they have done to many of the other weapons in the game. They have killed all the high caliber weapons in this version of the game. The Gauss, ERPPC and AC5Ultra. All creative versions of what they should be. That leaves only the AC20. Sooo DO NOT GIVE THEM A REASON!

Agreed!

GroovYChickeN, on 26 November 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

... The Jager was a replacement to the Rifleman. The Rifleman was primarily used for ANTI AIRCRAFT and long range fire support.

Ah hah appeals to the "Lore" I Like it!!

"Warning Blatant Reference to "Lore" incoming, Warning probably irrelevant point incoming!"

(That was fair wasn't it? - been warned)

So the problem in my opinion with the AC20 is the same problem as ALL the AC's in MWO. Reading the source material and especially the Books we see things like "storm or metal" over and over again giving the impression that multiple slugs fire with every AC shot.

MWO has NEVER done this so in effect the MWO Ac's are totally different weapons to the ones in the Lore/Books etc. We all need to remember that. Now they work perfectly acceptably to me don't get me wrong but I have often felt SO MANY problems would have just gone away had the PGI followed the weapons descriptions in the "Lore" rather than porting them from earlier versions of Mechwarrior.

One example then I'm done and will clear the thread.

AC 20's If they fired a burst of 3 X 7 point shells the problem goes away. You get 20 (OK 21! I can count) points of damage at their effective range ONLY IF you get all three directly and exactly on target. Allowing for those with fast reflexes and or luck to evade one or two thirds of the damage. at 2X range drop one shell for a 14 point hit IF both shells connect. At 3X range drop two shells

Other Ac's would scale similarly.
Ac10 = 3X 4pt shells or 3X 3.3pt shells if you want to be pedantic
AC5 = 3X 2pt/ 1.7pt shells
AC2 = 3X .7Pt shells or there abouts.

So simple, gets rid of the huge concentrated damage, still feels even MORE like dakka I would guess. Oh and Ultra ACS just fire a 6X burst of the above Theoretically doubling stuff but only if you keep the shell stream exactly and precisely on target. They would also lose more than one shell per range step to provide balance.

My hopes and dreams, it'd never get considered by our glorious leaders now so rant over apologies for the time waste