136 replies to this topic

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I just wish that this was implemented. Perhaps post it in suggestions?
Unfortunately I don't think that PGI have the manpower or willpower to do this. It would change the face of the game completely.
I am of course totally unbiased as a medium pilot.

[arghmace]

stjobe, on 08 December 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Turn that around and ask yourself: If heavier 'mechs were always strictly better, who would want to bring anything lighter to battles, weight-balanced or not?

Well if in 12v12 you have to bring 12 mechs to the field and you only have let's say 750 tons to play with, somebody has to. Random drops are another issue of course, but this is a team game. Anyway I don't think that better equals more fun. I enjoy many mechs that aren't exactly top notch. And you have to put your expectations in line with tonnage. If you do 1000dmg in an Atlas and on the other hand 800dmg in a Hunchback, you've obviously done better in the HB and contributed more to your team.

[stjobe]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 08 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I am of course totally unbiased as a medium pilot.

Hey, I pilot mostly lights and mediums, and your wishes seem quite "fair and balanced" to me!

[Artgathan]

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

But if a heavier mech wouldn't be better, why would anyone bring heavier mechs to weight balanced battles? Of course tonnage must bring you more power but I fully agree that heavies and assaults are too agile now.

Well in theory a slightly heaiver mech is better. If you're facing a team of lights, a team of mediums is better (since they're almost as agile, but better armed and armored). However, if you know your opponents have switched to all mediums, you can now bring all heavies. But now your opponent, knowing that you've switched to all heavies, can easily switch to all assaults - to which you respond by switching to all lights (thus starting the circle over).

So the solution is to bring a variety of mechs - you'll have some mediums to kill their lights, some heavies to kill their mediums, some assaults to kill their heavies, and some lights to kill their assaults.

kapusta11, on 08 December 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

This topic is disturbing, I bet all those theorycrafters have no idea how this all will work in practice.

You can actually work out exactly how it will work in practice. https://yourlogicalf...nal-incredulity

[stjobe]

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Well if in 12v12 you have to bring 12 mechs to the field and you only have let's say 750 tons to play with, somebody has to.

Yes, let's force people to play sub-par 'mechs because we can't be arsed to make anything else than top weight viable. Great plan.

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Anyway I don't think that better equals more fun.

I love my Commandos, so you get no argument from me on that.

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

If you do 1000dmg in an Atlas and on the other hand 800dmg in a Hunchback, you've obviously done better in the HB and contributed more to your team.

Damage is almost wholly unrelated to whether you contribute to your team or not, but I get your drift and agree. Player skill is still somewhat important, but if one goes to far with the whole "heavier is better" idea, even that won't survive.

[arghmace]

stjobe, on 08 December 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yes, let's force people to play sub-par 'mechs because we can't be arsed to make anything else than top weight viable. Great plan.

Damage is almost wholly unrelated to whether you contribute to your team or not, but I get your drift and agree. Player skill is still somewhat important, but if one goes to far with the whole "heavier is better" idea, even that won't survive.

Yes of course we cannot go too far with "heavier is better". Lighter mechs should have their own purpose. Role warfare, you know. The problem I see here is that some people want it to be so that a 40 ton mech has an equal chance to win a duel against a 100 tonner. That is just wrong. This game shouldn't all be about killing the enemy but seems that most are demanding death match and equal killing power for mechs regardless of their weight, sigh...

If I may make a comparison to Battlefield, there's tanks and airplanes that are outright superior to infantry. Warfare is asymmetrical to begin with, you know. Yet many players don't wanna play those killing machines, enjoying their infantry role and being part of the team. And when you play well in a "sub-par role" and kill the bigger guy, it feels so very good

[Artgathan]

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Yes of course we cannot go too far with "heavier is better". Lighter mechs should have their own purpose. Role warfare, you know. The problem I see here is that some people want it to be so that a 40 ton mech has an equal chance to win a duel against a 100 tonner. That is just wrong. This game shouldn't all be about killing the enemy but seems that most are demanding death match and equal killing power for mechs regardless of their weight, sigh...

If I may make a comparison to Battlefield, there's tanks and airplanes that are outright superior to infantry. Warfare is asymmetrical to begin with, you know. Yet many players don't wanna play those killing machines, enjoying their infantry role and being part of the team. And when you play well in a "sub-par role" and kill the bigger guy, it feels so very good

I don't mean to suggest that a Light/Medium should be able to straight-out win a duel against a Heavy/Assault. For instance, at longer ranges the Heavy/Assault should outclass the Light/Medium (since they have more average firepower). However at shorter ranges the Light/Medium should have a mobility advantage over the Heavy/Assault that gives it a fighting chance.

Think of it like this: you've brought a knife to a gun fight. At long range, you're going to lose. However, if you manage to get your opponent within arm's reach you've got a fighting chance.

Right now, Assault/Heavy mechs have a gun and a chainsaw, while lights and mediums only have (tiny) knives.

[LordBraxton]

I support any and all changes that buff my Shadowhawk.

Shadowhawks are so underpowered... >_>

Itd be nice if my xl275shawks had the same turning and acceleration as my xl330shawks..

PS: I like shadowhawks

PSS: I only pilot shadowhawks now

Edited by LordBraxton, 08 December 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[arghmace]

Artgathan, on 08 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

However at shorter ranges the Light/Medium should have a mobility advantage over the Heavy/Assault that gives it a fighting chance.

Yes but you cannot overdo it. If a Hunchie could forever stay behind an Atlas that wouldn't be just a fighting chance - that would be straight out murder.

[Artgathan]

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yes but you cannot overdo it. If a Hunchie could forever stay behind an Atlas that wouldn't be just a fighting chance - that would be straight out murder.

Clever piloting on the part of the Assault / Heavy would allow it to get it's guns back on target. If however they choose to simply mash A/D, they deserve to be destroyed. Also bear in mind that this is a team game - if the Assault / Heavy pilot decided to tango solo with a Medium / Light, they brought about their own destruction. Finally, the Medium / Light would have to brave a gamut of long-range fire in order to close enough distance to gain the mobility advantage over the Assault / Heavy. Shouldn't they be entitled to the chance to fight back once they're on their home turf? It's not like the Light / Medium can just teleport into short range. A smart Assault pilot will be wary of their weaknesses and play to their strengths; relying on their team to make up for their deficiencies.

[aniviron]

1 TS 1, on 07 December 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

I don't know if I agree.

Mech's should be superior to other mechs based on tonnage. At atlas should be superior a heavy, and a heavy to a medium or light mech in battle in every situation. An Atlas is twice as heavy, and 2 to 3 times as expensive. The root of the problem is the lack of tonnage limits.

I think some tweaks can't hurt (speed bumps for mediums, slight re-sizing to make it harder to hit mediums), but other than that it's not so bad.

I see this a lot, and I'm really just baffled why it keeps coming up, when it costs just as much to outfit a light mech as an assault. Here's the standard RVN-3L build, probably the most common light mech over the history of the game to-date. Here's the standard AS7-D-DC, which is not the most common assault build, but it is the most expensive, and one of the most common (and I don't drive Highlanders, I don't really know what goes inside them). The Raven costs 13,553,325cb, and the Atlas costs 15,967,682cb. So yep, the Atlas is more expensive. To be exact, it's 17.813% more expensive, which is a far cry from "2 to 3 times as expensive." I'm going to assume you don't drive lights a lot, but they still cost a lot of money, and still take a lot of skill to play; there's a pretty good argument that they take more, even, given how the majority of people are playing to win, and that same majority decline to drive lights when given the chance.

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Well if in 12v12 you have to bring 12 mechs to the field and you only have let's say 750 tons to play with, somebody has to. Random drops are another issue of course, but this is a team game. Anyway I don't think that better equals more fun. I enjoy many mechs that aren't exactly top notch. And you have to put your expectations in line with tonnage. If you do 1000dmg in an Atlas and on the other hand 800dmg in a Hunchback, you've obviously done better in the HB and contributed more to your team.

While it is admirable that you don't equate efficacy with fun for mech chassis, you're hardly speaking for the whole playerbase when you say that. It's fairly obvious when you watch the mechs and loadouts of the whole game shift every few months as the mechs and weapons get rebalanced that most people are just switching from one broken loadout to another as things change. Given that this is the situation in this game, I don't think you can reliably count on people to drop in Blackjacks and Commandos in significant enough numbers to make the system work.

When you have bad or disadvantaged mechs or guns, the answer is not to force people to stop playing with the good mechs and make them them use bad ones, the answer is to make the bad mechs a viable choice so that people want to use them. You can't fight human nature, especially in a free-to-play game like this where time comes at a premium for most people. If your players aren't getting what they want, they find other games where they can get it. If you stop them from using the mechs they want and there are no others left that they have any other desire to use, you have a problem. It just makes sense to try and fix lights and mediums now while there is still a chance.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 08 December 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Here's the standard AS7-D-DC,

Habit says you put in the BAP oddly over ECM.

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 08 December 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Habit says you put in the BAP oddly over ECM.

Whoops! Yeah, meant to drag in an ECM. Same weight and number of slots, just use your imagination.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 08 December 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Whoops! Yeah, meant to drag in an ECM. Same weight and number of slots, just use your imagination.

Well, my poor imagination replaced SRMs with Streaks, because... PGI.

I'm still waiting for the day that I can brawl with them again. It is but a fleeting dream.

[stjobe]

arghmace, on 08 December 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Yes of course we cannot go too far with "heavier is better". Lighter mechs should have their own purpose. Role warfare, you know. The problem I see here is that some people want it to be so that a 40 ton mech has an equal chance to win a duel against a 100 tonner. That is just wrong. This game shouldn't all be about killing the enemy but seems that most are demanding death match and equal killing power for mechs regardless of their weight, sigh...

In a 1v1 duel, a light should absolutely have an equal chance of winning as an assault; player skill is what should determine the outcome, not tonnage.

Medium vs Assault, same thing; the medium should have enough of a maneuverability advantage to be able to stay out of the Assaults firing arc (I say should because we all know that currently nothing can stay out of an Assault's firing arc)

MWO is a PvP game, never forget that. Every player only has one 'mech, so each 'mech needs to be viable to play, contribute and win with.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 08 December 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

In a 1v1 duel, a light should absolutely have an equal chance of winning as an assault; player skill is what should determine the outcome, not tonnage.

Medium vs Assault, same thing; the medium should have enough of a maneuverability advantage to be able to stay out of the Assaults firing arc (I say should because we all know that currently nothing can stay out of an Assault's firing arc)

MWO is a PvP game, never forget that. Every player only has one 'mech, so each 'mech needs to be viable to play, contribute and win with.

Pound for pound a Light is only as good as its pilot.Light armor, light weapons, high speed. One or two hits from heavy weapons should spell the end for lights.

This(Light Mech)

v

This(Assault Mech)

Two ways to play with swords.

[arghmace]

stjobe, on 08 December 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

In a 1v1 duel, a light should absolutely have an equal chance of winning as an assault

The problem here is that why would anyone take a slow assault if it weren't better at killing stuff? Much wiser to take a fast light mech that you can use to scout and cap as well. What's the point of an assault in this scenario?

OK, I actually have sort of an answer myself As aniviron wrote above, this is a team game and assaults playing in tandem are more powerful than single assaults, which can be overrun. But then again, bonuses for team play apply to other weight classes as well...

Funny thing here is that if every mech was just as good regardless of weight, we wouldn't even need weight restricted matches and weight balancing in MM, right?

[stjobe]

arghmace, on 09 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

The problem here is that why would anyone take a slow assault if it weren't better at killing stuff? Much wiser to take a fast light mech that you can use to scout and cap as well. What's the point of an assault in this scenario?

OK, I actually have sort of an answer myself As aniviron wrote above, this is a team game and assaults playing in tandem are more powerful than single assaults, which can be overrun. But then again, bonuses for team play apply to other weight classes as well...

Assaults are "better at killing stuff" - they have more and more varied weaponry and much more armour. What they don't have is speed and agility (or at least they shouldn't have that), so a light should be able to beat an assault given that it has
1) the speed and agility to stay away from the assault's gun sights, and
2) the patience to nibble away at the assault's armour.

The assault, on the other hand, should be able to beat a light easily just by hitting it once or twice.

So it becomes a game between the assault trying to land a solid hit or two, and the light dancing around and killing the assault by a thousand cuts. Sounds like great fun and about as even a fight as you could ever want.

But it's not like that in MWO; assaults are way too nimble and have no issues with tracking lights, so in general the assault will win - unless the difference in pilot skill favours the light pilot by a rather wide margin.

arghmace, on 09 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Funny thing here is that if every mech was just as good regardless of weight, we wouldn't even need weight restricted matches and weight balancing in MM, right?

You're starting to see the light...

[Joseph Mallan]

arghmace, on 09 December 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

The problem here is that why would anyone take a slow assault if it weren't better at killing stuff? Much wiser to take a fast light mech that you can use to scout and cap as well. What's the point of an assault in this scenario?

OK, I actually have sort of an answer myself As aniviron wrote above, this is a team game and assaults playing in tandem are more powerful than single assaults, which can be overrun. But then again, bonuses for team play apply to other weight classes as well...

Funny thing here is that if every mech was just as good regardless of weight, we wouldn't even need weight restricted matches and weight balancing in MM, right?

Cause folks like me prefer this style

over this style

[Noesis]

I prefer the Bruce Lee style personally but had to like the above post all the same as it was too frankly honest not to.