27 replies to this topic

[FireDog]

I hope PGI looks at the way MekTek's MW4 found a sort of balance between Clan and IS Tech.
http://www.sarna.net..._4:_Mercenaries
I mostly played on the Pure Tech/FFP Servers and saw both Clan and IS mechs regularly being fielded in matches (granted a post invasion/FedCom Civil War time line). Per lore, for the most part Clan weapons were lighter, longer ranged and ran hotter. And many players including myself did use Clan chassies, however most also used their favorite IS mechs as well. Where the MekTek IS mechs started to shine was due to the IS tech developing greater variety of specialized mechs and weapons. While most the basic IS weapons were sub-grade, the IS guns while heaver had greater rates of fire. The IS Cap-PPCs and lost tech X-pulse lasers hit harder than the clans equivalents, and the IS developed mini-gauss, hyper-ACs and RAC2s balanced the clan's PPC and Er-large Lasers much like the IS Thunder missiles balanced nicely with the Clan's Adv-Tech-Missiles. Many chassies like the MekTek's IS Tenchi and Clan Aries, being equivalent light strike heavies, found balance with each other with each able to beat the other in "their" game. Anyway I really hope everyone at PGI realizes this wheel has been invented before with great success and has the wisdom to examine the options others have discovered before them. Maybe even put some nice new spins upon them. Thanks...

[Koniving]

I'd much rather them look at lore as opposed to looking at how MekTek balanced MW4. In my opinion MW4 is as bad as MechAssault 2. I preferred MW3, which at least looked at the lore and made autocannons sound like burst fire weapons.


MW2 had them as fully automatic weapons (UAC/10 did 10 shots, UAC/20 did 20 shots).

Of course, lore is actually a combination of these things.

But first... There is no innersphere single shot AC/20 on mechs. Lore-wise humanoid chassis can't carry it due to it impeding movement and strong risks of losing balance. The largest AC/20 in the Inner Sphere arsenal is the 185mm 4 shot Chemjet Gun. Inner Sphere single-shot AC/20s exist exclusively in the form of turrets, bombers, and space-faring warships. There's rumor of a 100 ton tank but I still haven't found proof of it as I don't know my battletech tanks.

Of all the clan mechs, there is only one UAC/20 that fires single shot 20 damage with a double tap feature. It's carried by the shortest, most stable 65 ton mech there is (it's rarely depicted as taller than a 35 to 40 ton mech and is insanely long and wide with a body thickness similar to a Stalker), the Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born). It is the exclusive owner of a single shot UAC/20 that works akin to the UAC/5 in MWO.

Now for some comparisons. The Inner Sphere Hunchback's Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 is a 180mm 5 shot burst-fire autocannon. This means in a single trigger pull it spews 5 shots of 4 damage each in a burst. (Source: Tomodzuru = 180mm 5-shot (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback). It is depicted here in video on MechCommander. Notice the shots the AC/20 fires. Keep in mind that unlike the animation, anything describing this gun actually firing depicts it as slightly slower. Also take note of the Centurion (the tall ugly thing), notice the 3 shot AC/5? "GM Whirlwind", an AC/5 model (source: GM Whirlwind = 120mm 3 shot. There's mention of both burst and automatic fire versions. (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -featured on a Marauder)) but we'll come back to that.

In comparison, the Hunchback IIC is armed with a pair of "Devastator" UAC/20s. These are depicted as 6 rotating barrels, spewing out in a slow-firing machine-gun fashion 6 shots to total 20 damage (each doing 3.333333333333333 which when *6 = 20 even). Unlike the Hunchback's Tomodzuru cannon's cassette (magazine) fed burst fire, the HBK IIC's weapon is chain-fed and never stops firing. The difference here is that the Devastator UAC/20 has to spread its fire over the time of MWO's AC/20's normal recycle time. This means it has to start a new firing cycle within 4 seconds. This means 1 shot every 0.67 seconds. (Fires at 0 seconds, 0.67, 1.33, 2, 2.67, and finally the 6th shot at 3.33 seconds leaving it with 0.67 seconds cooldown to start the new cycle). In ultra mode, the firing rate doubles to squeeze in 12 shots within that same time frame.

Some other random AC/20 comparisons.

Atlas's 100mm Death Giver AC/20 is 15 shots. (Death Giver = 100mm 15 shot burst (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
King Crab's 120mm Death Giver AC/20 is 12 shots. (Death Giver = 120mm 12 shot full auto (Storms of Fate) -King Crab
Pontiac 100 is described as a multi-barrel cassette(magazine)-fed vulcan cannon (burst fire type). (Pontiac 100 = 100mm * 100 shots, magazine loaded. "Spewing a black cloud of death." "Empties its cassette within a second." (Heir to the dragon) -Victor

The list goes on. For example there are 10 shot fully automatic AC/2s which would have almost double the firing rate of MWO's MGs if they are to keep PGI's far too high DPS. And this is just touching base with the feared ACs and UACs that everyone is so terrified of. Which in MWO's implementation UACs are something horrific to be feared. If we used the lore as a basis, autocannons and MWO lasers would be really on par with one another.

In short, PGI used a very loose translation of the 'summaries' in tabletop to create our autocannons which doesn't account for anything but a simplified version of everything. Had they been created from the lore instead, we'd have far fewer "superior" weapons to worry about (and even a very good reason to run an LRM magnet like the Cauldron Born). Single shot autocannons to deal their rated damage are actually extremely rare in battletech lore. Kinda common for AC/2s but that's about it.

(On a side note, there are 44 variants of medium lasers alone, not counting clan or ER MLs. Each with different firing patterns, emitter counts, etc. Many PPC and Gauss Rifle variants. Even SRM and LRM variants. All of which vary by manufacturer and have their quirks. While we certainly can't expect so much, we could at least ask for the autocannons to be a bit closer to lasers in style to better match lore.)

Edited by Koniving, 27 November 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I may not want to see these introduced for mainly personal reasons, but you did your research well Koniving!

Also... The mini for the Hunchback IIC does not have 6 barrels just as a point of contention.

Quote

Description

The Ultra AC/20 is the largest bore Ultra-class autocannon. Like all Ultra autocannons, it is capable of twice the rate of fire of a standard autocannon, doubling its heat output and, potentially, its damage. Only the brand new Clan HAG 40 can match the sheer damage output of the Ultra AC/20, though even that cannot place 20 points of damage squarely in one place. The only weapons that are capable of delivering more damage to one location are the Heavy Gauss Rifle and the experimental Improved Heavy Gauss.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 November 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[Nimura Nekogami]

Like.

Big Fan of the Battletech Lore.
Also i think the burst mechanic could balance out some issues. And its way to de-sync AC from PPC`s.
I could live with it.
But we will see what PGI is doing with the AC`s......they are working on them. Lets wait a little longer.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 27 November 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

I'd much rather them look at lore as opposed to looking at how MekTek balanced MW4.
-snip about unrelated autocannon stuff-

Using the lore to balance the Clans is a bad idea, because even Randall Bills, a Battletech writer, thinks that the Clans were handled poorly:

Randall Bills said:

MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?

RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.

Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

http://mwomercs.com/...2-randall-bills

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2013 - 08:32 AM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 27 November 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Using the lore to balance the Clans is a bad idea, because even Randall Bills, a Battletech writer, thinks that the Clans were handled poorly:

http://mwomercs.com/...2-randall-bills

Perhaps. But the autocannons were handled rather well if you look mainly at those.

Combine MWO and MW:LL-style lasers with lore-based autocannons (Note 1) and I think the big fear of clan-only UAC/20s will quickly disappear. Of course this should not be the only thing done.

Note 1

Spoiler

(so long as we keep within the tabletop rule of range and total heat generated cannot change, all variants must keep the same DPS; the range rule is explained rather nicely and semi-realistically as "The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors." Source. The recoil aspect if introduced would not only add another dynamic of skill (versus point and click) but also allow for a real purpose of the 'being considered' crouching feature. Crouch = brace = accuracy, better recoil control.)

But I'm not in favor of using MW4 / Mektek as an example for balancing. Though MWO is really pushing the boundries, to use what was in MW4 as a balancing factor in my opinion would be even more insulting than heat scale... and on the second link in my description you can find I've spent about 500 posts compelling a different solution to all that heat scale addresses that doesn't involve wonky mechanics. So you know that's really saying something.

If anything, take a peek at MW:LL. Some of the AC/5s there do 1 damage per shot, and total 5 shots in 1.6 seconds to deal 5 damage (MWO does it in a single shot and fires again in 1.5 seconds). Some small lasers fire almost akin to machine guns, but actually deal 3 damage much more spread out in about the same amount of time (slightly slower) than MWO. The Gauss Rifle takes 6 seconds to fire again. The PPC takes 7 seconds. That quickly removes both as brawling weapons and more as ranged support weapons which is what they are mainly used for in lore.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

I may not want to see these introduced for mainly personal reasons, but you did your research well Koniving!

Also... The mini for the Hunchback IIC does not have 6 barrels just as a point of contention.

Fair point. But if you're sculpting a mini, would you really want to make 12 barrels in total? It's sort of counter-productive in costs.

Edited by Koniving, 27 November 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 27 November 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Perhaps. But the autocannons were handled rather well if you look mainly at those.

I omitted the ACs from your quote (even though they made up the bulk of it) because they don't really seem related to the topic of this thread [outside of making sure the Clan UACs aren't hilariously broken (although there are still other obstacles to overcome, such as LRMs, SSRMs, etc....)].

[Joseph Mallan]

Koniving, on 27 November 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Perhaps. But the autocannons were handled rather well if you look mainly at those.



Fair point. But if you're sculpting a mini, would you really want to make 12 barrels in total? It's sort of counter-productive in costs.

Almost valid

RAC for the Centurion was a new arm sculpt. to make a good Multibarrel for the Hunch IIC all that is needed is to make a casting of the RACs Tip.
Like this

[FireDog]

Looking back at the generations of mech style gaming, one point should be outstandingly clear, "lore" is a poor way to balance a real time simulation game. You have to remember, the "lore" was mostly written by a bunch of liberal arts/B grade SciFi/pen and paper gaming book authors, not engineers, either trying to sell paperback novels or game merchandise for a tabletop game. Both poorly translate to a real time, 1st person simulation game. What variables work best in a computer simulator style games include, penetration and damage taken when hit, range and profile of weapons, recycle times, heat generation, amount of ammo carried, how well heat sinks work, how various sensors and ECM work, how heavy weapons are, what weapons types can be mounted where, and basic pro & cons of chassis, speed, geometry, power plants, maneuverability, armor, etc plus the skills and tactics of the real world player themselves. All in a real time, non turn based, non dice driven, non god's eye view, realistic leaning game. Pen and paper gaming and computer simulations, while sharing a few parallels are just plain apples and oranges. BTW, I have observed when most people comment about MW4, I find very few ever played the MW4 MekTek 3.1c mod, let alone the FFP/Pure Tech style of play upon it. MekTek greatly improved the Microsoft MW4 product and took it to heights far beyond what Microsoft ever envisioned.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

In this one instance, I hope PGI deviates from the Battletech universe.

I seriously hope they look at the culture of the Clans and how it would affect their mech designs, and instead of going to long range, more damage, and lower heat weapons, design to defeat their enemies before they can even return fire; instead they give the Clans weapons that match their credo. I want to see devastating up-close weapons, where their supposedly superior piloting and gunnery skills can be tested.

[Joseph Mallan]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 27 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

In this one instance, I hope PGI deviates from the Battletech universe.

I seriously hope they look at the culture of the Clans and how it would affect their mech designs, and instead of going to long range, more damage, and lower heat weapons, design to defeat their enemies before they can even return fire; instead they give the Clans weapons that match their credo. I want to see devastating up-close weapons, where their supposedly superior piloting and gunnery skills can be tested.

i would think a superior fighter would want to prove his/her superiority at all ranges and styles of combat. I mean I was good with an M-16 at at close range, but I practiced the most at killing the enemy out at 500M. Better he die there than get closer and have a better chance to kill me. But what would I know about that stuff... I was just an Infantry Marine.

Second... Clans weapons had reach, but they also had less minimum ranges. So Clan Weapons were rough at range and devastating in close!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 November 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[KharnZor]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Almost valid

RAC for the Centurion was a new arm sculpt. to make a good Multibarrel for the Hunch IIC all that is needed is to make a casting of the RACs Tip.
Like this

I would have used plasticard to make the base then used plastic tubing to make the barrels drilling out the ends and fix them all in place with pins and glue. to finish i'd sculpt in some greenstuff for filling and fine detail .

[Asakara]

Koniving, on 27 November 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

<Great Post>

Just to add to that let's see what the official fluff magazine said about autocannons originally:

From BattleTechnology Magazine 0201: Pages 25 & 26

Battlemech Weapons - Crisis Of Range And Accuracy

Autocannon
Machine Guns With A Kick

Autocannons are descended from the rapid-fire, explosive warhead rounds first developed for use against aircraft and armor during the mid-20th Century, which, in turn, were developed from the 19th century Gatling machine gun. Indeed, many high-tech, 20th and 21st century autocannon types were based directly on the rotating, multi-barrel designs developed in Gatling's original design.

BattleMech autocannon are rapid-fire weapons ranging from 40 to 120 mm, firing shells designed to cause the maximum damage to BattleMech composite armor. Shells are fed into the autocannon's firing chamber from a shell cassette, inaccurately labelled a "round." BattleMech AC ammunition inventories refer to the numbers of "rounds" -i.e., cassettes holding anywhere from 4 to 100 individual rounds, or shells - stored aboard. The number of shells in a cassette depends on the caliber of the shell and on the design of the cannon. Some weapons eject spent cassettes almost as fast as empty cartridge casings - but the cassette system allows fresh rounds to be smoothly and automatically chambered to a weapons which is often (e.g., the MAD-3R Marauder) not an integral part of the BattleMech's hull.

Autocannon effective range depends on the size of the weapon and on the caliber of the shell fired. Autocannons are classified by the number of cassette "rounds" which can be fired within 10-seconds, though this can be misleading since there are fewer shells in large-caliber cassette rounds than in smaller. Generally speaking, autocannons firing a large number of small shells from cassettes holding a large number of shells (the AC\2, for example) have a longer range but cause less damage than heavier shells fired in short bursts from cassettes holding only a few rounds (such as the heavy AC\20).

The characteristics of each autocannon type are listed below:

AC\2: The AC\2 is a relatively light weapon (about 6 tons) which causes relatively light damage for a weapons of its size. It has an extremely high rate of fire, with a sound which has been likened to a buzzsaw. The AC\2 has an effective range of over 700 meters but is prone to difficulties in targeting at ranges of less than 120 meters. The high rate of fire causes maintenance problems as well, necessitating frequent relining of the barrel.
The BJ-1 Blackjack mounts an AC\2 in each arm as main weapons in its primary mission as a source of suppression fire against non-'Mech forces.

AC\5: The AC\5 category actually takes in a broad range of gun calibers and rates of fire, all with weapons systems of about the same weight (8 tons) and range (effective range = 540 meters). Weapon types range from medium caliber, 60 mm shells shells fired at 8 to 10 rounds per second, to large calibers - notably the Whirlwind 120 mm autocannon mounted on the MAD-3R Marauder. The Marauder's AC\5 fires at a painfully low rate of speed - only 3 to 4 individual rounds per second, but each 120 mm shell packs a tremendous punch. Like the AC\2, most AC\5's lose some accuracy at close ranges.

AC\10: The AC\10, such as the Luxor-D series carried by the CN9-A Centurion, is another intermediate class which includes both medium and heavy calibers. The Luxor-D fires 70 mm shells at 10 rounds per second, while the larger KaliYama class 10 carried by the Kurita ON1-K Orion fires 90 mm shells at 5 rounds per second. The effective range is less than for an AC\5, but the larger number of shells fired with each cassette burst causes greater damage to the target.

AC\20: The monsters of the Autocannon weapon class, the AC\20 are generally carried by only assault 'Mechs. Each cassette round holds only four actual rounds, and these are cycled in extremely short, fast bursts which allow the cannon to run through 2 cassettes per second. The weapons are extremely heavy - as much as 14 tons - and their range is restricted by limits to the amount of propellant which can be packed into each shell cartridge. Maximum effective range for an AC\20 is only about 270 meters. However, those few tightly-spaced, extremely heavy rounds cause terrible damage on impact, making them ideal weapons for such BattleMech monsters as the Cyclops and Atlas.

Space prohibits a detailed listing of all the BattleMech autocannons by type, caliber, and rate of fire in this overview of weapons. As an overall weapons class, autocannons are highly regarded as an effective and efficient 'Mech weapon. AC\5s, in particular, combine long range with low heat build-up, and a solid punch balanced between the high-rate-of-fire/small shells v.s. low-rate-of-fire/large-shells variables. These factors make the AC\5 one of the more popular BattleMech weapons, particularly if storage space aboard a given 'Mech allows storage for a full 20 reload cassettes. So popular is the AC\5, that its range and damage factors are often listed as standard autocannon data, particularly in older weapons listings.

As with other BattleMech weapons, all autocannon shells, whatever their caliber, carry for considerably larger distances than those listed as "effective range" in most manuals. As with other weapons systems, these figures reflect the difficulty in hitting targets as mobile as a BattleMech at ranges of more than half a kilometer.

[Joseph Mallan]

KharnZor, on 27 November 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I would have used plasticard to make the base then used plastic tubing to make the barrels drilling out the ends and fix them all in place with pins and glue. to finish i'd sculpt in some greenstuff for filling and fine detail .

I have large, old, battle scarred hands... Gimme preformed glue ons please!

[KharnZor]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I have large, old, battle scarred hands... Gimme preformed glue ons please!

[Joseph Mallan]

Asakara, on 27 November 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Just to add to that let's see what the UNofficial fluff magazine said about autocannons originally:

From BattleTechnology Magazine 0201: Pages 25 & 26

Battlemech Weapons - Crisis Of Range And Accuracy

Autocannon
Machine Guns With A Kick

Autocannons are descended from the rapid-fire, explosive warhead rounds first developed for use against aircraft and armor during the mid-20th Century, which, in turn, were developed from the 19th century Gatling machine gun. Indeed, many high-tech, 20th and 21st century autocannon types were based directly on the rotating, multi-barrel designs developed in Gatling's original design.

BattleMech autocannon are rapid-fire weapons ranging from 40 to 120 mm, firing shells designed to cause the maximum damage to BattleMech composite armor. Shells are fed into the autocannon's firing chamber from a shell cassette, inaccurately labelled a "round." BattleMech AC ammunition inventories refer to the numbers of "rounds" -i.e., cassettes holding anywhere from 4 to 100 individual rounds, or shells - stored aboard. The number of shells in a cassette depends on the caliber of the shell and on the design of the cannon. Some weapons eject spent cassettes almost as fast as empty cartridge casings - but the cassette system allows fresh rounds to be smoothly and automatically chambered to a weapons which is often (e.g., the MAD-3R Marauder) not an integral part of the BattleMech's hull.

Autocannon effective range depends on the size of the weapon and on the caliber of the shell fired. Autocannons are classified by the number of cassette "rounds" which can be fired within 10-seconds, though this can be misleading since there are fewer shells in large-caliber cassette rounds than in smaller. Generally speaking, autocannons firing a large number of small shells from cassettes holding a large number of shells (the AC\2, for example) have a longer range but cause less damage than heavier shells fired in short bursts from cassettes holding only a few rounds (such as the heavy AC\20).

The characteristics of each autocannon type are listed below:

AC\2: The AC\2 is a relatively light weapon (about 6 tons) which causes relatively light damage for a weapons of its size. It has an extremely high rate of fire, with a sound which has been likened to a buzzsaw. The AC\2 has an effective range of over 700 meters but is prone to difficulties in targeting at ranges of less than 120 meters. The high rate of fire causes maintenance problems as well, necessitating frequent relining of the barrel.
The BJ-1 Blackjack mounts an AC\2 in each arm as main weapons in its primary mission as a source of suppression fire against non-'Mech forces.

AC\5: The AC\5 category actually takes in a broad range of gun calibers and rates of fire, all with weapons systems of about the same weight (8 tons) and range (effective range = 540 meters). Weapon types range from medium caliber, 60 mm shells shells fired at 8 to 10 rounds per second, to large calibers - notably the Whirlwind 120 mm autocannon mounted on the MAD-3R Marauder. The Marauder's AC\5 fires at a painfully low rate of speed - only 3 to 4 individual rounds per second, but each 120 mm shell packs a tremendous punch. Like the AC\2, most AC\5's lose some accuracy at close ranges.

AC\10: The AC\10, such as the Luxor-D series carried by the CN9-A Centurion, is another intermediate class which includes both medium and heavy calibers. The Luxor-D fires 70 mm shells at 10 rounds per second, while the larger KaliYama class 10 carried by the Kurita ON1-K Orion fires 90 mm shells at 5 rounds per second. The effective range is less than for an AC\5, but the larger number of shells fired with each cassette burst causes greater damage to the target.

AC\20: The monsters of the Autocannon weapon class, the AC\20 are generally carried by only assault 'Mechs. Each cassette round holds only four actual rounds, and these are cycled in extremely short, fast bursts which allow the cannon to run through 2 cassettes per second. The weapons are extremely heavy - as much as 14 tons - and their range is restricted by limits to the amount of propellant which can be packed into each shell cartridge. Maximum effective range for an AC\20 is only about 270 meters. However, those few tightly-spaced, extremely heavy rounds cause terrible damage on impact, making them ideal weapons for such BattleMech monsters as the Cyclops and Atlas.

Space prohibits a detailed listing of all the BattleMech autocannons by type, caliber, and rate of fire in this overview of weapons. As an overall weapons class, autocannons are highly regarded as an effective and efficient 'Mech weapon. AC\5s, in particular, combine long range with low heat build-up, and a solid punch balanced between the high-rate-of-fire/small shells v.s. low-rate-of-fire/large-shells variables. These factors make the AC\5 one of the more popular BattleMech weapons, particularly if storage space aboard a given 'Mech allows storage for a full 20 reload cassettes. So popular is the AC\5, that its range and damage factors are often listed as standard autocannon data, particularly in older weapons listings.

As with other BattleMech weapons, all autocannon shells, whatever their caliber, carry for considerably larger distances than those listed as "effective range" in most manuals. As with other weapons systems, these figures reflect the difficulty in hitting targets as mobile as a BattleMech at ranges of more than half a kilometer.

Just one correction. BattleTechnology is an Unofficial source. As such any articles are to be read with a grain of salt, until such a time it is put into a Canon sourcebook.

Quote

Apocryphal Product
Although it is an official BattleTech product, the subject of this article does not meet the current criteria for Canon for the BattleTech universe.
See the article's section on Canonicity for details.

[keith]

Koniving, on 27 November 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

I'd much rather them look at lore as opposed to looking at how MekTek balanced MW4. In my opinion MW4 is as bad as MechAssault 2. I preferred MW3, which at least looked at the lore and made autocannons sound like burst fire weapons.


MW2 had them as fully automatic weapons (UAC/10 did 10 shots, UAC/20 did 20 shots).

Of course, lore is actually a combination of these things.

But first... There is no innersphere single shot AC/20 on mechs. Lore-wise humanoid chassis can't carry it due to it impeding movement and strong risks of losing balance. The largest AC/20 in the Inner Sphere arsenal is the 185mm 4 shot Chemjet Gun. Inner Sphere single-shot AC/20s exist exclusively in the form of turrets, bombers, and space-faring warships. There's rumor of a 100 ton tank but I still haven't found proof of it as I don't know my battletech tanks.

Of all the clan mechs, there is only one UAC/20 that fires single shot 20 damage with a double tap feature. It's carried by the shortest, most stable 65 ton mech there is (it's rarely depicted as taller than a 35 to 40 ton mech and is insanely long and wide with a body thickness similar to a Stalker), the Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born). It is the exclusive owner of a single shot UAC/20 that works akin to the UAC/5 in MWO.

Now for some comparisons. The Inner Sphere Hunchback's Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 is a 180mm 5 shot burst-fire autocannon. This means in a single trigger pull it spews 5 shots of 4 damage each in a burst. (Source: Tomodzuru = 180mm 5-shot (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback). It is depicted here in video on MechCommander. Notice the shots the AC/20 fires. Keep in mind that unlike the animation, anything describing this gun actually firing depicts it as slightly slower. Also take note of the Centurion (the tall ugly thing), notice the 3 shot AC/5? "GM Whirlwind", an AC/5 model (source: GM Whirlwind = 120mm 3 shot. There's mention of both burst and automatic fire versions. (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -featured on a Marauder)) but we'll come back to that.

In comparison, the Hunchback IIC is armed with a pair of "Devastator" UAC/20s. These are depicted as 6 rotating barrels, spewing out in a slow-firing machine-gun fashion 6 shots to total 20 damage (each doing 3.333333333333333 which when *6 = 20 even). Unlike the Hunchback's Tomodzuru cannon's cassette (magazine) fed burst fire, the HBK IIC's weapon is chain-fed and never stops firing. The difference here is that the Devastator UAC/20 has to spread its fire over the time of MWO's AC/20's normal recycle time. This means it has to start a new firing cycle within 4 seconds. This means 1 shot every 0.67 seconds. (Fires at 0 seconds, 0.67, 1.33, 2, 2.67, and finally the 6th shot at 3.33 seconds leaving it with 0.67 seconds cooldown to start the new cycle). In ultra mode, the firing rate doubles to squeeze in 12 shots within that same time frame.

Some other random AC/20 comparisons.

Atlas's 100mm Death Giver AC/20 is 15 shots. (Death Giver = 100mm 15 shot burst (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
King Crab's 120mm Death Giver AC/20 is 12 shots. (Death Giver = 120mm 12 shot full auto (Storms of Fate) -King Crab
Pontiac 100 is described as a multi-barrel cassette(magazine)-fed vulcan cannon (burst fire type). (Pontiac 100 = 100mm * 100 shots, magazine loaded. "Spewing a black cloud of death." "Empties its cassette within a second." (Heir to the dragon) -Victor

The list goes on. For example there are 10 shot fully automatic AC/2s which would have almost double the firing rate of MWO's MGs if they are to keep PGI's far too high DPS. And this is just touching base with the feared ACs and UACs that everyone is so terrified of. Which in MWO's implementation UACs are something horrific to be feared. If we used the lore as a basis, autocannons and MWO lasers would be really on par with one another.

In short, PGI used a very loose translation of the 'summaries' in tabletop to create our autocannons which doesn't account for anything but a simplified version of everything. Had they been created from the lore instead, we'd have far fewer "superior" weapons to worry about (and even a very good reason to run an LRM magnet like the Cauldron Born). Single shot autocannons to deal their rated damage are actually extremely rare in battletech lore. Kinda common for AC/2s but that's about it.

(On a side note, there are 44 variants of medium lasers alone, not counting clan or ER MLs. Each with different firing patterns, emitter counts, etc. Many PPC and Gauss Rifle variants. Even SRM and LRM variants. All of which vary by manufacturer and have their quirks. While we certainly can't expect so much, we could at least ask for the autocannons to be a bit closer to lasers in style to better match lore.)

first liked, then this is y i gave pgi my 120 bucks. in hopes they could bring a decent TT lore into a game. but alas they have failed. this is y i am playing BF4

[Odins Fist]

What Clans and Clan Tech..???

Haven't seen ANY yet.

[Sandpit]

Is it possible to have a thread that doesn't involve ACs or AC20? lol

It's a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way from clans at this point

[FupDup]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

It's a looooooooooooooooooooooooong way from clans at this point

I heard from the MWO-Illuminati that the Clan equivalent of the Phoenix pack will be announced sometime around January-February.

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2013 - 01:59 PM.