17 replies to this topic

[MadCat02]

Ok i admit my mistake .

Finally found a proper link on SARNA.NET

Ferro-Fibrous armor dosen't give anything but weight saving XD

Oh well thats dissapointing . Endo-Steel for Assaults it is

Edited by MadCat02, 13 February 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Ferro-Fibrous Armor is a volumnous substance that consists of nano-fibers artificial alloys which effectively have 12% to 16% greater protection than "standard" battlemech armor plating (Star League and Inner Sphere ferro-fibrous is 12% better; Clan ferro-fibrous is 16% better).
This armor's strength is using its volume to absorb and disperse incoming thermal and kinetic energy; the greater volume of the armor allows it to engage in this behavior better than standard armor. Ferro-fibrous armor is generally formed in flat surfaces, as rounded shapes tend to reduce its ability to absorb damage (Source: TRO 3055, Horned Owl / Peregrine entry)



IT TAKES UP MORE VOLUME ( 14 slots )

IT WEIGHTS LESS (12-16% less)

IT PROVIDES MORE PROTECTION (12-16%)PER TON

PROTECTION DOES NOT COME FROM WEIGHTING LESS .


Otherwise it would be like a bad version of Endo Steal . IT ACTUALLY GIVES YOU MORE DURABILETY AT A COST OF 14 SLOTS AND GIVES YOU A BIT MORE SPACE

It does not infact give you more duarability. Unless you add more armor. 614 points of standard armor weighs 19.5 tons, the same amount of FFarmor weighs 17.5 tons. An Atlas can only have 614 points of armor be it FFA or Standard. Same level of protection less weight. Its mearly a perception thing.

[MadCat02]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 February 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

It does not infact give you more duarability. Unless you add more armor. 614 points of standard armor weighs 19.5 tons, the same amount of FFarmor weighs 17.5 tons. An Atlas can only have 614 points of armor be it FFA or Standard. Same level of protection less weight. Its mearly a perception thing.

Look

IT TAKES UP VOLUME BECAUSE IT WEIGHTS LESS! JUST like DOuble Heat sinks

IT TAKES UP MORE VOLUME TO DISTRIBUTE 12% DAMAGE

SAME 1 ARMOR gives 1.12 DAMAGE METIGATION

Edited by MadCat02, 13 February 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

The reason people say that Endo is better than Ferro is because you'll get more tonnage back with Endo for the same 14 slots.

Ferro isn't more protective...it's simply that the same AMOUNT of armor weighs less.

Edit:

I'm assuming you're quoting Sarna.net in your first post? Well, guess what. MWO isn't going by those mechanics. If this is a thread saying they SHOULD...well...your intent is a little fuzzy.

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Otherwise it would be like a bad version of Endo Steel

According to the MWO mechanics...yeah, that's basically exactly what it is.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 13 February 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[krash27]

Again a direct quote from the wiki "The maximum amount of protection is not changed; merely the weight of armor required to achieve that level of protection"

Making two posts basically saying the same incorrect statement will not make it true.

[Joseph Mallan]

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Look

IT TAKES UP VOLUME BECAUSE IT WEIGHTS LESS! JUST like DOuble Heat sinks

IT TAKES UP MORE VOLUME TO DISTRIBUTE 12% DAMAGE

SAME 1 ARMOR gives 1.12 DAMAGE METIGATION

Up to the Mech max armor, As long as we can agree on that truth, you have every right to look at how the armor works however you chose.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

FF is more protective than standard armor - per ton. That is all. It does not change the value of a single armor point, nor does it change the maximum potential protection level. It is simply more weight efficient for every point of protection.

In the end, points of armor are an abstraction of ablative protection offered by a given armor type. When you take a hit to FF armor, you lose less armor from a mass standpoint, but you lose exactly the same abstract armor "points" as if you'd taken the hit to standard armor.

For damage reduction, you need Hardened, Reflective, or Reactive armor (which incur costs and penalties to balance their ehanced damage reduction properties).

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost Badger, on 13 February 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

According to the MWO mechanics...yeah, that's basically exactly what it is.

Its not just MW:O mechanics. Endo is the better choice on TT as well.

[Dracol]

FF is the upgrade one takes after endo. Every since Btech days it has been this way.

Could it be explained a little better to make this point clear? Yes
Does it need to be changed? No, because the essence of both endo and FF is to free up tonnage, thats it.

Endo frees up the most, if you have crits after equipping it, then one can equip FF to free up a little bit more.
Tl/dr FF is fine as the second upgrade option to free up weight

[DONTOR]

You seem very confused OP.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Just remember, in the mechlab 1 point of armor is always 1 point of armor. It will never say 1 but secretly mean 1.12.

[MadCat02]

Rouken, on 13 February 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Just remember, in the mechlab 1 point of armor is always 1 point of armor. It will never say 1 but secretly mean 1.12.

Well

3 ER-PPC is 45 heat but secretly is like 120 if you shoot them together

So can't trust your heat DS in mechlab

Edited by MadCat02, 13 February 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[DONTOR]

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Ok i admit my mistake .

Finally found a proper link on SARNA.NET

Ferro-Fibrous armor dosen't give anything but weight saving XD

Oh well thats dissapointing . Endo-Steel for Assaults it is

Took long enough lol! welcome to the party.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Well

3 ER-PPC is 45 heat but secretly is like 120 if you shoot them together

So can't trust your heat DS in mechlab

I know how ghost heat works and now you know how FF armor works. All is right in the world.

[Lupin]

DONTOR, on 13 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

You seem very confused OP.

Wait until we have reflective armor which is heavier per 1pt

[Pastor Priest]

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Ok i admit my mistake .

Finally found a proper link on SARNA.NET

Ferro-Fibrous armor dosen't give anything but weight saving XD

Oh well thats dissapointing . Endo-Steel for Assaults it is

Glad you have the fortitude to admit your mistakes. Kudos :-)

[Koniving]

Some quick facts.

Ferro armor is actually a downgrade. It's old tech. New, standardized armor was created to replace it. Compared to Ferro, the new standardized armor is slightly heavier but does not consume space. It is also cheaper to repair.

Some mechs never 'upgraded' from Ferro, due to a fluff-only reason that while one kind favors slightly better protection against ballistics, another favors more general protection. This was only fluff and we know what PGI does with lore -- chuck it out the window. It is not part of the tabletop rules.

1 ton of armor in standard gives you 32 points. 1 ton of armor in ferro gives you 36 points. However, your maximum armor cannot increase. This maximum is a tabletop rule that should be purged in my opinion (for a system that similarly decides our engine limits; stock-based armor limits. An idea is below.)

Spoiler

So far there are two armor concepts floating around. Credit to JustWannaPlay for the original idea. "Base armor on stock."
My hashing out said: Variant Stock + 100 = new max armor per mech variant.
Buckminister's Ferro-favoring alternative: Variant Stock + # tons of armor

Example of 3 mechs with identical armor with my concept.
Stock + 100 = new max.
Locust: Structure 69. Current max armor 138. Stock armor 128. New max 228. (Total health 228 + 69)
Jenner D: Structure 119. Current max armor 238. Stock armor 128. New max 228. (228 + 119)
Cicada: Structure 137. Current max armor 274. Stock armor 128. New max 228. (228 + 137).

Notes: Engines. Cicadas start stock with a higher engine but can only go up by 4 ratings. They are supposed to be able to equip much larger ones and surpass the 150 kph limit. Jenners, not so much.

Buckminister's idea.
Stock + # tons = new max.
For demonstration: Stock + 1 ton = new max.
Note: 1 ton standard = 32. 1 ton ferro = 36. All tons converted to ferro become 36.
Locust: Structure 69. Current max armor 138. Stock armor 128. New standard max 160. (Total health 160 + 69)
New Ferro max 180 (total health with ferro 180 + 69).
Jenner D: Structure 119. Current max armor 238. Stock armor 128. New standard max 160. (Total health 160 + 69)
New Ferro max 180 (total health with ferro 180 + 119)
Cicada: Structure 137. Current max armor 274. Stock armor 128. New standard max 160. (Total health 160 + 69)
New Ferro max 180 (total health with ferro 180 + 137)

Note his tonnage isn't specifically set, but ideally would be a universal number to avoid creating the assault mechs are inherently superior.

Koniving, on 12 February 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Jager A (most armored Jager). 256 stock armor. Current max, 422.
Stock + 1 ton = new max.
Stock (8 tons) + 1 ton standard armor (32 points per ton) = 288.
Stock (8 tons) + 1 ton made ferro armor (36 points per ton) = 324.

Atlas. Stock, 608. Current max 614.
Stock + 1 ton = new max.
Stock (19 tons) + 1 ton standard armor (32 points per ton) = 640.
Stock (19 tons) + 1 ton made ferro armor (36 points per ton) = 720.

I can definitely say it won't only be lights that benefit from that ferro concept. Even if you don't safe much weight at all, you get a fair benefit indeed.

Oh and random fun fact: The 4 UAC/5 Jagermech design that's floating around? Happens to use 192 armor (Jager S) and if you're lucky enough not to jam and use it at range, it's devastating and butchers enemies quite fast. But yeah, my concept was stock + 100 across the board so that armor was well above stock values but at an even number instead. (Interestingly the Spider would only gain 2 points of armor above its current max; yet the Urban mech would have enough to be reasonably viable even with an engine limit of 62 kph after elites.).

MadCat02, on 13 February 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Well

3 ER-PPC is 45 heat but secretly is like 120 if you shoot them together

So can't trust your heat DS in mechlab

That's ghost heat. But yes. Mechlab doesn't say jack about it yet.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale <--for info on it.

Edited by Koniving, 13 February 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Ngamok]

You could have just admitted your mistake in your other thread rather than starting a new one.