70 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 November 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Nerf small lasers. I got killed by them once.

Seriously?
But wait you are right:

Of course you are right. 8 Small Lasers are not effected by ghost heat - they weight only 4 tons. And a BJ-1X can run more as 110 kph to bring them in to short range quiet fast. With a short burst and fast cycle time they deal as much damage as a AC 20 but much faster. Given heat and mass - they outmatch 4 MLAS too. Or a single large Laser.
Yes Small Lasers are overpowered - not because the weapon it self is not proper balanced - but mounting them in boats is as usually the problem.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 November 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Corbon Zackery]

Max range fire is really the only thing that needs to be looked at instead of a magic BB that hits you for half to 75% damage. Wind, and ballistic down slope needs to be added since its a slug flying through the air its effected by gravity. Gravity pushes the projectile downwards while wind pushes it left or right.

[stjobe]

Karl Streiger, on 28 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Seriously?
But wait you are right:

Of course you are right. 8 Small Lasers are not effected by ghost heat - they weight only 4 tons. And a BJ-1X can run more as 110 kph to bring them in to short range quiet fast. With a short burst and fast cycle time they deal as much damage as a AC 20 but much faster. Given heat and mass - they outmatch 4 MLAS too. Or a single large Laser.
Yes Small Lasers are overpowered - not because the weapon it self is not proper balanced - but mounting them in boats is as usually the problem.

Funny thing about that BJ-1X; even with 19 DHS, it will still overheat after 47 seconds (30 seconds without pilot skills).

If that's not the perfect example of why the heat system is broken, I don't know what is.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Karl Streiger, on 28 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Seriously?
But wait you are right:

Of course you are right. 8 Small Lasers are not effected by ghost heat - they weight only 4 tons. And a BJ-1X can run more as 110 kph to bring them in to short range quiet fast. With a short burst and fast cycle time they deal as much damage as a AC 20 but much faster. Given heat and mass - they outmatch 4 MLAS too. Or a single large Laser.
Yes Small Lasers are overpowered - not because the weapon it self is not proper balanced - but mounting them in boats is as usually the problem.

I did see a guy boating flamers. It scared me so much I left the game for a week. We should look at them too.

[Nimura Nekogami]

"AC`s are not broken, just not well designed"

I dont consider AC`s op.
There are many ways to fix some issues of balistic weapons.

I prefer the burst mechanic mentionen a "billion" times in the forums.
Also the mechanic how DHS should work looks interessting. Many ways could lead to an improvement.
But nothing of this is tested in gameplay and testing such things in actual gameplay would be needed.
We know and we see some imbalances.

Remeber the x4 PPC era? Most of us said, that without an heat penalty this is way too powerfull.
PGI did something. Ghost heat. (like it or not....but it washed away some boats)

Than something happend i dont understand.......PGI increased the heat of PPC`s back to its old value.
(and lowerd the bolt travel-speed)
As i remeber it. I supported the heat increase before heat dmg and ghost heat was implemented, because i thought this could help to lower the amount of PPC`s.
Dont get me wrong.....i still use PPC`S because of PinPiont, but it fellt like the intension to "overnerf". (Yeah...PPC`s are still powerfull)

We dont know what PGI is doing with the AC`s in the futere. I will wait.

[Sandpit]

Rorvik, on 27 November 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

What trade off is that?

The only "trade off" I can see is weight, as AC weapons have longer range, pinpoint, instant damage, and relatively low heat when compared to lasers and missiles. Weight is definitely an issue with Medium and Light mechs, as you have to sacrifice something to use non-MG ballistics in them.

However, when you build an AC/40 Jager, it's a little difficult to take the "weight is a trade off" argument seriously...

Weight
Crit Clots
Ammo Dependent
Hit or Miss
Ammo Explosions

Corbon Zackery, on 28 November 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Max range fire is really the only thing that needs to be looked at instead of a magic BB that hits you for half to 75% damage. Wind, and ballistic down slope needs to be added since its a slug flying through the air its effected by gravity. Gravity pushes the projectile downwards while wind pushes it left or right.

Uhm gravity already affects bullet drop

[Lightfoot]

Lightfoot, on 27 November 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

The Mechs are just too weak. They need to create a Battletech balanced game with no Ghost Heat, working Gauss Rifles, DHS 2.0 (full) then either reduce the damage the weapons do across the board or increase the toughness of the Mechs.

Why? Because Battletech set the three weapon types to be roughly equal, but each with a different weakness and strength. This adds a third layer of strategy to MechWarrior where the map enviornment can grant superiority to one of the weapon types. Thus, if players know they are preparing for a hot map like Tourmaline, they will take mostly cool Ballistic weapons. Conversely if they are preparing for Frozen City, they would take mostly Energy weapons to gain the benefits of that enviornment.

Right now, MWO is just all AC's and Ghost heat and DHS 1.4 is such a severe burden that the sub-zero maps grant no advantage to increasing the energy weapon loadout.

So MWO misses the bigger strategic picture because it relies too heavily on a couple of heat nerfs that also make ACs so effective.

So the point is MWO just has some broken mechanics, Battletech mechanics. And the way to fix it is not by adding more nerfs, but by removing the current nerfs that MWO has placed on top of normal Battletech functionality. Ghost Heat, DHS 1.4, Gauss Rifle desync.

Then halve the damage of all weapons to compensate for the nearly 2x Recharge MWO uses. Then MWO would run fairly close to Battletech and you would get Mechs using loadouts based on the Map Enviornment. And that, adds this third layer to MechWarrior gameplay strategy that MWO players have never experienced due to the oppressive heat nerfs.

So ACs don't need a targetted nerf, MWO just needs to remove DHS 1.4 and Ghost Heat nerfs and then lower the overall damage weapons do across the board. That would get MWO back to working like Battletech/MechWarrior instead of GunWarrior.

And no, I do not have a favored weapon or loadout. I can easily adapt to any balance MWO uses, but as a Beta Tester I have to tell PGI they are missing out on the full spectrum of gameplay strategy that MechWarrior normally offers.



.

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 November 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Almond Brown]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 November 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I'd lower the maximum range from triple the normal range to double the normal range first.
Observe for a while.

If we're talking about small adjustments and keep refusing to fix the heat system and convergence and all that.

All that would do is basically increase the ammo loads for those Ballistics. Many players will shoot at far off targets thus basically "wasting" ammo. Cutting the allowed range down just removes that temptation thus conserving ammo by default. We need the Ballistic to have less ammo, not more, given the amount that can be carried based on the current 8-10 minute Match.

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 November 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Almond Brown]

stjobe, on 28 November 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Funny thing about that BJ-1X; even with 19 DHS, it will still overheat after 47 seconds (30 seconds without pilot skills).

If that's not the perfect example of why the heat system is broken, I don't know what is.

Example?

So you feel that having the ability to apply as much as 504pts of DAMAGE before OVERHEATING shows poorly of the Heat system? Dude, please pass that Bong over here.

[stjobe]

Almond Brown, on 28 November 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Example?

So you feel that having the ability to apply as much as 504pts of DAMAGE before OVERHEATING shows poorly of the Heat system? Dude, please pass that Bong over here.

Overheating with 19 DHS (32.6 points of dissipation) from firing 8xSL (16 heat per alpha) does indeed showcase a very broken system.

Even with 5 SLs it would eventually overheat. With 19 DHS. That's 9 tons and 24 crit slots worth of cooling, and it can't cool five small lasers, the puniest of energy weapons.

Throw two AC/5s on a BJ-1 though, and it can fire until its ammo runs out without overheating on just 10 DHS (or, to continue your example, do 900pts of DAMAGE without OVERHEATING).

In short, that's not my bong you're holding.

[RagingOyster]

Look guys, this has been done to death. I'm not talking about "AS are overpowered" I'm talking about "X killed me thus X is overpowered nerd X right now PGI you are the worst company on earth I hate you do what I say"

First off, AS are not overpowered. Strong? Sure. Op? Not a chance. The only changes that need to be made IMHO are DHS 2.0, less cockpit shake and maybe shorter max range on ACs.

Second, if you honestly think something is op, construct am argument and present it. Don't just say "This is too stronk"

Lastly, stop ******* attacking PGI at every opportunity. Nothing destroys my hope for this community more than reading all the whining, pessimistic bull cap you guys post about the game. I've seen way too many people who "Give up hope" or think "PGI is incompetent" etc etc
Honestly, if you think you can do better fill out a damn job application and prove it. Until then **** and be grateful that they are developing this game on a minimal budget with a small staff for you ungrateful ******* at all. Don't get me wrong, constrictive criticism is always welcome but it has to be constructive. You can't just insult the devs then expect them to cater to your every whim.

[Victor Morson]

Autocanons are not overpowered.

They are top dogs, again, because Ghost Heat has killed most effective energy & missile builds to the point that you need ballistics that (outside of the AC/2, which Ghost Heat also killed) are the least impacted; while the AC/20 has the worst modifier, it's controllable.

But you won't see quad SRM6, Large Lasers, etc. because again, Ghost Heat boned them. On top of that, bigger Pulse Lasers are terrible and they refuse to take 60 (literal) seconds to fix them.

Get rid of Ghost Heat and I assure you ballistics will no longer be the one true path.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 November 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[Mechteric]

I personally think AC's should become DPS weapons, like they were in Mechwarrior 2 and in the Mechwarrior reboot trailer. They could do the same DPS they do now, and have their ammo counts adjusted accordingly. This way they don't have all their damage hitting in one location (unless you aim well enough for it).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 28 November 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Almond Brown, on 28 November 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

All that would do is basically increase the ammo loads for those Ballistics. Many players will shoot at far off targets thus basically "wasting" ammo. Cutting the allowed range down just removes that temptation thus conserving ammo by default. We need the Ballistic to have less ammo, not more, given the amount that can be carried based on the current 8-10 minute Match.

I generally shoot at 500m range with my AC/20 and my accuracy is still at 68 % or something like that. My accuracy with energy weapons isn't actually better (yes, the one in the stats profile looks better at first glance, but if you look at shots taken and actual damage resulting from it, it's actually worse than the AC/20.)

So I disagree with your thesis. Yes, sure, you're not that accurate at 800m with your AC/5 or AC/10. But you still can hit and deal damage, where as the LL guy will be mostly ineffective (and also not hit any more precise) despite having similar base range.

And I can also guarantee you that at 500m, my AC/20 will hit more often and deal more damage then your Medium Lasers.

And that is damage that counts. When a heavy mech with MLs approaches me and I have an AC/20 equipped, those 10-20 damage I make while he's running in my direction can make a difference.

The worst form of "ammo waste" is the kind of ammo you don't use because you're dead. That you waste ammo on shots that you miss is not so terrible if you don't miss all the time.

Those Quad PPC Stalkers weren't overrun by Brawlers that have far higher damage potential at close range because the Quad PPC Stalkers already were able to deal damage to them before they were in the range where the short range weapons build advantage manifested. This will also invariable apply to ACs, which have even better effective range than PPCs and are closer to ER PPCs.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 28 November 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Spr1ggan]

This game needs cone of fire.

[Wintersdark]

AC's are perfectly fine, Ghost Heat broke the alternatives. And no, I don't mean armloads of PPC's - you can't even mount 3 Large Lasers.

But you can mount, say, 2 AC5's effortlessly, maybe add in an AC2 for kicks and giggles, and they'll work just fine together. There's nothing you can mount with your two large lasers effectively before ghost heat bones you.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 28 November 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

AC's are perfectly fine, Ghost Heat broke the alternatives. And no, I don't mean armloads of PPC's - you can't even mount 3 Large Lasers.

But you can mount, say, 2 AC5's effortlessly, maybe add in an AC2 for kicks and giggles, and they'll work just fine together. There's nothing you can mount with your two large lasers effectively before ghost heat bones you.

What I do with my Thunderbolt 5SS is the cookie-cutter loadout of 2 LL and 5 ML for a nice alpha and no ghost heat to worry about. Of course, it's still completely illogical and outright stupid that I can get away with a 43-point alpha with my Thud, but as soon as somebody tries a weaker 27-point alpha with 3LLs they get heat penalties.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Karl Streiger, on 28 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Seriously?
But wait you are right:

Of course you are right. 8 Small Lasers are not effected by ghost heat - they weight only 4 tons. And a BJ-1X can run more as 110 kph to bring them in to short range quiet fast. With a short burst and fast cycle time they deal as much damage as a AC 20 but much faster. Given heat and mass - they outmatch 4 MLAS too. Or a single large Laser.
Yes Small Lasers are overpowered - not because the weapon it self is not proper balanced - but mounting them in boats is as usually the problem.

I prefer my 4P swayback with 9SPL - even with the speedcap it can work. It is also a great light defence - ECM has no effect.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4861b880803b120

[hercules1981]

A weapon that has ammo and needs to lead targets should be a better weapon when used well because it takes more skill to use it. And to those complaining about getting shot at 1200 meters away, one statement of advice keep your head down always even if you think u r far enough away from the enemy shame on u for running around in the open like a dope.

[Victor Morson]

FupDup, on 28 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

Of course, it's still completely illogical and outright stupid that I can get away with a 43-point alpha with my Thud, but as soon as somebody tries a weaker 27-point alpha with 3LLs they get heat penalties.

Maybe sometime in the coming year Paul will stop playing Tetris long enough to, at the very least, make "the maths" less stupid.