16 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Hello all, Closed beta Jenner Pilot and Jenner's are the only way to go. I am quite confident in my piloting and combat skills. Lights were powerfull back in the day due to many reason's namely Lag shield and even I agree they were to powerful. Then came ECM and damn near made Jenner's useless as around every corner was a Raven 3L with streaks which turned Jenner's into a heap of molten metal, and then I left for a bit to let the game settle out a bit.

I have come back after about 9 months and played for the last several days on my Jenner and have come to the realization that the role of the Jenner has changed significantly. My lag shield is gone (Good Thing I think) I heat up even quicker than I used to (Still don't know why) and more importantly I die much easier than I used to. So I have a few questions from an old pilot who is intent on getting his ACE Jenner Pilot title back.

1. Role of the Jenner. I currently run 5 ML's with 15 DHS and 295XL engine. Bascially the same I used way on back when. I consider it an assassin Jenner. I let the Brawler's Duke it out and then pinpoint shoot the exposed section. However I noticed that I am dying much quicker. I am assuming its due to the lag shield not being as powerful as it used to be (Frowny Face). So is there a new better role for the Jenner?

2. Mech layout. As noted in 1, I use a Jenner F normally and the D when I need C Bills. Is there a better layout for my style. I usually stay back to guard the rear unless I have to go scout for one reason or another

3. Lights, are we just outnumbered? I have noticed in most matches there is only me for the light mech on my team. And usually if there are more lights I am the only Jenner. Is the rule of the Jenner at an end?

Any comments or suggestions are always appreciated. I am solid in my piloting skills and basic knowledge of the game. It's just I have been gone for 9 months and missed a few improvements to the game.

[Eaerie]

First off you are dealing with 12 enemies instead of only 8, the extra 4 mechs means you really need to be aware of where EVERYONE is, both friendly and enemy (friendly fire isnt all that friendly)
Jenners still pack great firepower but are no longer the king of speed. Commandos, locusts and spiders all go faster now (exeption is the ECM mechs)
as a note, in general I think the average speed of mechs in the game are slightly faster now too, which makes it harder for you to break away and harass.
Best adive i can think of is to be really selective in what you are going after, NEVER STAND STILL and never run in a striaght or predictable path! and always have a way out and be prepared to leave in a hurry.

[Caswallon]

Welcome Back Darien first up!

Lights still are powerful but no longer the dreadnoughts I understand they were in CB. Thing is they take more time and effort to master from what I have seen so are a bit less popular, that's why your feeling a tad lonely out there most like.

Jenners still make the number 1 assassin Mech IMOHO, dart in and drop 4+ Lasers on a targets back or critted location and they will hurt badly but as you observed the rule seems to be dart in HIT dart out and cool off a bit now, the lag shield is much reduced overall though there are exceptions. Generally if you ping sub 300 you shouldn't count on it saving you.

Can't see why you'd stop at a 295 engine myself unless that was a CB limit I didn't know about, I run an XL 300 in all of mine make sure to fit the TWO internal HS that the 300 allows you, much better dissipation internally (Not sure if you knew that so thought best to be safe)
My favored load-outs generally includes a pair of mediums and 2 or more small pulsers to deliver damage faster as I dart in and out. Some Jenner pilots I know still rock the 6 small laser array and can deal incredible damage with it. Experiment, but from what you said I would try for an all Small pulse array at first. Charge in deliver that hit or two and evade to cool. Mediums might do theoretically more damage but standing around long enough to apply it might be whats killing you. A pulse burst seems to work for me thus far..

Good luck and glad to see another Light Pilot back

Oh and the 3L got hit with a Nerf hammer, its not a good sight to see in another light, but its not the Uber Light killer it was (Thats now arguably the Kintaro)

[TercieI]

Caswallon, on 28 November 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Can't see why you'd stop at a 295 engine myself unless that was a CB limit I didn't know about, I run an XL 300 in all of mine make sure to fit the TWO internal HS that the 300 allows you, much better dissipation internally (Not sure if you knew that so thought best to be safe)

Only the first 10 internal engine DHS cool at 2.0. In this the XL295 & XL300 are equivalent (exceeding 250 as they do). Any added to either only cool at 1.4. The 300 can hold 2, of course, so if space is a concern, that helps, but it shouldn't be on a Jenner. My -D still runs a 300, but I cheat on armor and am seriously considering dropping to the 295 to get back that bit or armor. My RVN-3L just doesn't want to share.

Other than that small clarification, I whole-heartedly support your post.

Edited by Terciel1976, 28 November 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Caswallon]

Thanks for the clarification

[Mad Porthos]

Eaerie raises some excellent points, on speed and more but also the composition of the battlefield competition has changed considerably. One thing I recall about my early jenners was that for the most part, jump jets were its unique edge. Not only did you have speed, you could deliberately crest terrain, make a controled burn and clear a second ridge, drop and be completely out of contact. without the terrain slowing mechs, it was simpler as say a commando or 3L was still crippled by the bobbing of terrain, yet often in the jenner you had asmooth glide/firing platform to aim and fire on your pursuer even as you continued to jet away. meanwhile, no other light even had jump jets back in the day, with the exception of the 4x raven which was slower than molasses. This made the jenner a jet fighter in a land of of prop driven airplanes. Until the advent of the spiders, jenner was still unchallenged as this jet fighter, despite the unkindness of ravens with streaks (3L), because a good jenner would use terrain to block streaks, carrying out dogfights circling ridges and hills which would eat up the streak barrage. Once the spider came along, you had a mech on the books that could follow the jenner manuver for manuver, maintaining contact and taking away the jenner's luxury of choosing its battles.

While you have been away, they tightened up many aspects of aiming and jumping. Host State Rewind (HSR) was introduced, which means at least some of the time, if an enemy fires at YOU and their crosshairs and weapon leading as their screen shows it is correct, then YOU may suddenly realize you have been hit, even though to your perception you have fully returned to cover. This considerably reduced the lagshield making it harder to brawl and more imperative than ever to be erratic, break LOS, and practice more hit and run skirmishing, ambush and recon work.

On the topic of jumping, jump jets had a screen shake effect introduced, initially quite powerful, causing nausea in some when they were laser focused on thier screen and aiming. The reduced the shake in later patches, then decoupled the actual aim point of weapons from the reticule, such that when jumping you no longer could rely on jumping to give stability for a precision shot. On a jenner F, maybe 3 out of 6 lasers will hit somewhere within an inch or two of the reticule when jumping, often wildly scything around.

HSR and Jump Jet shake combined to take the wind out of many jenners sails as their advantages were well countered. Where many still have a single jump jet on their jenner, for manuverability, jump skating etc, they don't carry the full complement for maximum lift and airtime anymore, because without lag and with no stability when jumping, there is no advantage... whilst you are giving substantial advantage to your enemy by committing yourself to a easily predictable trajectory.

[Darian DelFord]

Thanks for the replies. I run with 1 JJ always have and its main use is to scale hills that I may need a boost with and to do a quick 180 where needed to either flee or take a shot. I have noticed that even behind hills I will still be hit with beam weapons and never figured out why. Maybe this HSR you all are referring to is the reason. I truly enjoy playing the Jenner and no matter how pathetic it has become probably will do so till I perma leave the game with the exceptions of a few breaks just to play around with different chasis.

So what I am seeing here, is I need to stay on the far outskirts of any skirmish and only dart in to take a pot shot or two and then dart out. Or stay behind the front lines protect the rear's from any would be lights or mediums that might try for the exposed rear of the heavies and assaults.

IMHO that just seems wrong for a Jenner. It truly saddens me to see how far the mech has fallen. Don't get me wrong I expected a peg or two to be taken out, but the last couple of days just brushing up was truly disheartning.

[Eaerie]

You don't have to stay out and dart in, but if you want to get into the think of it you need to let your bigger mech buddies get there attention prior to diving in and once fire starts coming your way make yourself a non viable target fora couple seconds before coming back at a different angle. If you want to really pactice this hop in a locust and have some fun, every time someone misses me in my locust its the greatest thing in the world, because one hit is all it takes to cripple/kill a locust.

[BSK]

Eaerie, on 28 November 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

First off you are dealing with 12 enemies instead of only 8, the extra 4 mechs means you really need to be aware of where EVERYONE is, both friendly and enemy (friendly fire isnt all that friendly)

Correction, now you have 16 enemies because at least 1 lance in your random team completely ignores what the scout reveals ..

[xMintaka]

Darian DelFord, on 28 November 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

IMHO that just seems wrong for a Jenner. It truly saddens me to see how far the mech has fallen. Don't get me wrong I expected a peg or two to be taken out, but the last couple of days just brushing up was truly disheartning.

Out of curiosity, what do you feel is "right" for a Jenner?

Brawling in a light mech against anything that outweighs you is, generally, going to end badly for you. Of course, if you find a lone Stalker, Highlander or Atlas and you're a decent pilot you can take them down relatively simply, but other than that you'll be hard pushed to stick around in a firefight and make it out in one piece. A chance Alpha from a well built Assault will completely strip my JR7's of front CT armour (usually run 34 there) and then some of the internals too.

Which is why everyone above is suggesting that you only attack targets that are either:

A. Otherwise pre-occupied. Zoomed in sniping/lobbing LRM's/already engaged with your friendlies, etc
B. Heavily damaged and you know you can take off a component/get a kill in one or two passes
C. Heavy, slow and alone

The above, as well as "Speed is life" is my mantra when I pilot lights in general. The JR7 family just happens to get the most playtime because they are supremely fun. Heck, I have four. All the variants, plus another F with SPL's.

Edited by Lunatech, 29 November 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[Void Angel]

1. Role of the Jenner. I currently run 5 ML's with 15 DHS and 295XL engine. Bascially the same I used way on back when. I consider it an assassin Jenner. I let the Brawler's Duke it out and then pinpoint shoot the exposed section. However I noticed that I am dying much quicker. I am assuming its due to the lag shield not being as powerful as it used to be (Frowny Face). So is there a new better role for the Jenner?

2. Mech layout. As noted in 1, I use a Jenner F normally and the D when I need C Bills. Is there a better layout for my style. I usually stay back to guard the rear unless I have to go scout for one reason or another

3. Lights, are we just outnumbered? I have noticed in most matches there is only me for the light mech on my team. And usually if there are more lights I am the only Jenner. Is the rule of the Jenner at an end?

Welcome back!

The game has changed in several important ways which affect you as a Light:

• ECM has been dialed back down with hardpoint locks and counters. Beagle Active Probes now cancel the nearest ECM within 150m, a PPC strike will disable ECM for four seconds, and of course TAG burns through ECM as well. Additionally, ECM is locked into the left torso of an equipped 'mech via a hardpoint requirement (so no more putting it in my Atlas' leg.) These changes mean both that you have options against ECM equipped lights, and that running with ECM lights yourself will be less advantageous.
  
• Lag shields are essentially gone, with the implementation of host-state rewind. There are still hit registration issues, mind, but in general if an enemy hits your 'mech model, the game is going to register a hit on that spot. This doesn't happen as reliably as we would like, with 'mechs of all kinds (but lights seemingly more often) simply ignoring hits occasionally. This effect seems more pronounced with certain weapons, but testing is difficult to perform. In any case, hit registration is nothing compared to the old lag shields, and you'll have to adjust to the fact that while evasive maneuvers are still effective, people can hit you far more reliably.
  
• As I take my role as Captain Obvious seriously, I must also point out that we're doing 12v12 drops now. This is nifty and all as far as it goes, but it means more people are likely to be shooting at you at any given time. This has, in conjunction with the ongoing Autocannon Apocalypse. led to a "camp and hide" mentality in pugs. And since your team is likely to be hiding most of the time, that means you're mostly on your own if you're doing your job as a mobile set of eyes.
  
• You slow down going up hills now - different 'mechs have different profiles. In general, the bigger you are, the less able you are to run up hillsides, and only Locusts and Commandos are better at it than a Jenner.
  
• The Modules have been expanded and tweaked a lot. I strongly recommend seismic sensor for a light, and if you can afford the 40K c-bills, learn and use the Improved Airstrike consumable. They're both well worth it. Hill climb... not so much.
  
• And finally, while Ohmwrecker stopped updating his list a long time ago, Smurfy is still going strong - and pulling his data directly from the game files in most instances (he's been manually inputting missile tube counts.) Since many weapons have been changed in ways too numerous to spell out here, you can use this awesome resourse to re-familiarize yourself with old equipment and 'mechs, as well as research the new ones.

Given the current state of the game, I'd recommend a few things for you as a light:

• Scout. Don't go over the river, through the woods, and halfway to Grandmother's house - you don't have ECM, I know; been there. However, you can (remember Seismic Sensor?) get information and relay it to your team with little risk if you're good at ridge hugging and evasion. This will be valuable to your team; even if someone does manage to kill you, you can still type to the team to relay information. Heck, EVERYONE who dies should relay information to the team, instead of just sullenly waiting for the match to end... but I digress. =)
  
• Group with other lights, if any. Sometimes, you're gonna be the only light, but often there'll be another guy. Talk to your Decoy valued teammate and let him know you'll back him up if he sticks with you to scout. Try to attack the same guy the Decoy respected fellow pilot is attacking, so that enemies might shoot at him, not you in order to bring down wounded targets more quickly.
  
• Don't be too aggressive. Your playstyle should still be perfect for a Jenner - you just have to train your situational awareness to tell you when enemies are distracted by the Fracking Atlas, and when they'll shoot at you as an easier kill. It's as much art as science, and the only way you're going to recalibrate your skills is to play with it in mind.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 November 2013 - 02:04 AM.

[Parappaman]

Void Angel, on 29 November 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

As I take my role as Captain Obvious seriously

This made my morning

[stjobe]

Darian DelFord, on 28 November 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

3. Lights, are we just outnumbered? I have noticed in most matches there is only me for the light mech on my team. And usually if there are more lights I am the only Jenner. Is the rule of the Jenner at an end?

Others have answered your other questions, so I'll just touch on this.

The simple answer is yes, lights are outnumbered. We represent only about 10-15% of 'mechs these days.

One might speculate endlessly on why this is the case, but it may be summarized with three words: "No role warfare" - the only things that bring in the XP/CB is damage/kills/assists, and you get those easier in a heavier 'mech. Simple as that.

As for whether the rule of the Jenner is over, well... Not really. It's always been the king of lights (except for when the 3L held the crown due to the broken SSRM+ECM combo) and it still is. It's just that lights in general have a harder time dominating these days.

Edited by stjobe, 29 November 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[SnagaDance]

Hi there, fellow Jenner pilot here. I like to run a 6 ML F-version or 4 MLP's for the other versions. Yes I like to run hot.

I can only chime in on what the others have said. While diving into an enemy pack like a ravenous piranha can easily occupy 6 mechs for 30 seconds or so you'll still end up dead if you never disengage. Use that speed and firepower to go for the rear armor.

Just last night I killed a Jager, Victor and Thunderbolt, all in almost pristine condition, by burning through their rear armour. I hit them, remembered where I hit them and immediately disengaged to return at a different angle. At the same time their attention was focussed on the rest of my team that was moving up, they simply couldn't afford to pay me too much attention. (and would ahve fallen for the classic 'Chase the Jenner' ploy otherwise.
They all went down in 2 or 3 passes (except the Victor who chose to completely ignore me so I broke the never stand still rule to use a second salvo to kill him there and then).

So Jenners are still perfectly fine to use, and good fun too, but........I guess we should accept death a bit more.

[Darian DelFord]

As always I appreciate the feedback. Yes I have accepted death alot more than I used to. I can at least still state that the PUG"s have not learned the rule to not chase the squirrels. That is my best tactic right now, taking a pot shot as a few mates are cresting a hill and get them to turn their front's to me and their backs to the enemy.

StJobe I think you are correct in the fact that since Role Warfare is still not in the game trying to obtain C-bills is difficult at best for a light. I have actually thought about brushing off my Founders Catapult C1 as a brawler with 4 ML's and 2 SRM 6's, or my 6 SRM 6 Catapult A1 to increase my C-bill gain, Never really been a fan of an assault mechs and my Pults can at least move when needed.

I guess its just gonna take me time to get used to the new MWO and adjust to it like everyone else. But knowing now that the Left torso hols the ECM on all mechs makes that back left torso even more appealing )

[Frogfire]

I never played beta, so I can only give the perspective of present state jenners.

I run the JR7-K (for the extra module slot). I pack 1 ERLL, 3 SL and 1 SRM4, plus 3 jumpjets. powered by the XL300 and cooled by 11 DHS. (You can run pretty much the same setup in a D, and for the F and F(C) I guess just replace the missiles with more lasers)
I have a ton and a half that I can move around. Most often it is armor, but sometimes I replace it for an AMS when the missiles get to many, or a BAP if I want superscout (and ECM countering) abilities.

The Jenner can perform many roles, among them the backstab snap you mention.

- With a long range weapon and sensors it is also very viable as spotter/sniper, above and behind your friends. Your quick local movements make you a very hard target to hit at range, and you have plenty of time to find cover before the missiles reach you.

- With armor and a deathwish it makes a perfect distraction on the front line, jumping over and between enemies - often resulting in their friendly fire and a few spotting assists, before you have to retreat back out of sight (or die).

- Up close they can stand toe to toe with a sniper set up for long range, and most LRM boats have backup weapons that are weaker than yours. So a jenner is also good for getting in behind enemy lines and harrasing their ranged support.

- You can also play it as support when the brawlers clash, with 4-6 lasers working quite effective to soften up armor or take out weak spots. While you also can give chase to any lights harrassing your team - or follow and finish any who retreat out of sight.

I find the Jenner to be the most versatile of all my mechs. I never see a fight and think, oh - that is to far away. I simply love running into a crowd of enemies and heat up the enemy, while my buddies take firing positions - or jump right in the face of an Atlas and unleash my 26 alpha, before zipping up the hill behind him. It is a scout, a brawler, a sniper and an assassin - and one major distraction for most pilots.

Obviously I also die alot. Either a lucky shot or I get worn down before I get away. Me and mine get plenty of savior kills, because of the crazy jenner. There are pilots who can pluck the shoulder of a jenner in midair with their AC20, and then there are those who just give up when their torso twist isn't fast enough. You never know, until they start shooting at you.

2.
If you prefer to stay and guard the rear, I would suggest at least one long range weapon. An ERLL or PPC give you more firing opportunities - if you can balance it out with heat, weight and your ability to deal with local problems.
Pulse lasers and SRMs can turn you into a rather brutal assassin, which is great on some maps with lots of buildings and blocking elements - but dangerous in the middle of the desert.
It took me a while to find the balance I liked, and which variant worked best for it. So my only advice is to keep tuning and tinkering to your satisfaction.

3.
I think it varies a bit. Sometimes there are plenty of spiders, locusts and ravens with the odd commando and jenner thrown in. And sometimes you are the only thing below 50 tons. The ECM versions of spiders, commandos and ravens are certainly popular, as is the trialspider with its pesky machine guns.
The good thing about the jenner is that it can easily adapt to be part of a wolfpack, or fire support when the bigger brawlers slug it out.

The jenner does not rule, but it can still decide who ends up ruling

[Israel Finklestein]

Jenners are still easily the best non-ECM light in the game, 6ML is more firepower than most of those awful shadowhawk builds you see in matchmaking. Unlike other lights, a Jenner isn't crippled by the upward creep in tonnage in the average game, 6ML is enough to punch through the back armor of assaults and heavies quite easily, especially since a lot of them are running less back armor than ever (again, because the game often becomes an assault vs assault face to face fight). There are even people on the forums talking about running 0 back armor on assaults. Don't try to correct these people, let them learn why that's a bad idea the hard way.

You don't have ECM so you aren't a solo scout mech anymore. Jenners now specialize in close range fire support. Run around with brawlers or in a light wolf pack (with at least one ECM mech), now that LRMs have been buffed there are more missile boats around than ever, and they tank the **** out of their leg armor to pack as much ammo in as possible.

LRM buff makes an ECM mech partner even more important though, since LRMs track so well and the Jenner has such a huge core.

So, in short, get some buddies in fast mediums and lights and run around ruining people's days. I've had 800+ damage games while paling around with an ECM spider, the Jenner is most definitely not dead.