28 replies to this topic

[DodgerH2O]

What advice would you give a completely new but intelligent player for optimizing/streamlining builds? I've seen some very inefficient constructions in the various subforums and feel like I see the same few issues over and over, I personally don't need advice but it would be nice to have a convenient thread to direct folk to. How would you explain such things as:

Regular vs. XL engines
C.A.S.E. with XL engines
Ferro-Fibrous vs Endo-Steel
SHS vs DHS
Internal Heatsinks
Ammo placement
Armor placement

Or any other general mech-building issue? I know a simple thing that some people miss are XL engine fittings. Often I'll see an XL 250 used in a build when the XL 255 would fit better, for the same weight and nearly the same cost you can move faster, every little bit counts. The XL 275 and 280 have the same relationship, but with the relatively recent changes to Raven and Hunchback engine caps, the 275 has the advantage of fitting into more potential mech loadouts.

[Roughneck45]

These are all my opinions of course.

- Unless I am in a light or cicada I always use a standard engine, and at least 250 in size to get the 10 true double heatsinks. XL engines can be really great, until you fight against players with great aim, then they are a death trap.

-C.A.S.E with the XL does nothing

-Always Endo>Ferro. It saves you more tonnage in all circumstances. Ferro is used on pretty much all lights, good amount of mediums, rare heavies, and even rarer assault builds. You only use Ferro when you are stacking it with Endo and do not need the crit slots.

-DHS on %100 of the mechs you plan on using frequently. A mandatory upgrade if you want to maximize the potential of the mech.

-I try to use all the crit slots in the mech, so I'll pick my weapons and put a small standard engine in, fill the rest of the slots with heatsinks, then take the small engine out and see what the max engine fit is, then decide if I like the speed. Always depends on what your weapons are though, some builds don't need a lot of heatsinks.

-Ammo in the legs and head is most common. If you want to use a C.A.S.E you can swap it from the opposite leg to the C.A.S.E. side.

-Max armor on the torsos, biased towards the front. Max arms if they are holding enough weaponry. If you are in an assault mech and you have 1 mlas in your arm you don't really need max armor for it. I try to have 40 points of leg armor, more if I can spare the tonnage.

As far as advice on building, I like to start with either a weapon loadout in mind or a certain speed I want to go, then fill in the rest.

When you first buy a mech, strip everything off, upgrade it with Endo and DHS, and adjust the armor so you have a whole number or a half ton increment for your tonnage. 16 points of armor = half a ton. Try to use all the slots on the mech, whether you are cramming more heat sinks in, or seeing if you can squeeze ferro on to pick up more useful tonnage. I try to have at least a 1.2 heat efficiency, 1.4 is ideal, anything greater than that will run cool.

And the golden rule for mech building.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

USE SMURFY FIRST!

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 November 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Not sure if there is one, but this is what I would add as some general tips.

• Regular vs. XL engines

This depends on the mech and preferred loadout, so advice will tend to be specific to the mech.

This is mainly due to maximizing survivability in a mech in regards to the hitboxes of the mech, and the potential available weight, speed and agility gains in using a more expensive XL over a Standard.

Quote

I know a simple thing that some people miss are XL engine fittings. Often I'll see an XL 250 used in a build when the XL 255 would fit better, for the same weight and nearly the same cost you can move faster, every little bit counts. The XL 275 and 280 have the same relationship, but with the relatively recent changes to Raven and Hunchback engine caps, the 275 has the advantage of fitting into more potential mech loadouts.

This is where using a resource like Smurphy's can come in handy to check this kind of detail out. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

• C.A.S.E. with XL engines

Not needed with current known game mechanics for IS mechs.

• Ferro-Fibrous vs Endo-Steel

If your build has 14 slots available then Endo is the first choice between these two.

Then if you still have another 14 available slots then you could use FF armor.

Most light builds can benefit from using both then it is a case by case basis for larger mechs, but generally not recommended due the need of crit slots for other equipment.

• SHS vs DHS

Currently most builds gain a noticeable benefit in using DHS. Only a small handful of builds benefit from staying with SHS, such as the Locust 1V and the Spider 5K (both using four MG's) for example.

• Internal Heatsinks

The difference in benefit is with DHS where engines 250 and above have 10 DHS that give a boost of 0.20 and 2.00 to heat dissipation and capacity. Smaller engines range from 4 to 9 internal heatsinks with that boost.

External DHS give a boost of 0.14 and 1.40 to heat dissipation and capacity. And external heatsinks can help protect other items in a section when armor is stripped with how crit damage is applied.

• Ammo placement

The rule of thumb is to use the head, legs and arms on most builds, but I would not recommend filling the legs with ammo on lights.

• Armor placement

Any mech can benefit from going with max or near max armor, save reducing by 0.5 or 1.0 ton (can be taken off of a shield arm or legs) from the max armor to maximize weight utility.

Also some Heavies and Assaults might see a benefit in a further reduction in leg armor for further weight savings, if they have available crits slots say for more DHS or ammo or to simply fit a bigger engine too, but this becomes a risk/reward issue where less than 43 is very risky on a heavy or less than 65 on an assaults' legs (And i wouldn't recommend anything lower either).

For most mediums and above you could go as low as 8 in the back side torsos, 10 in the rear center torso then maxing the front armor, but the pilot must weigh the risks and benefits such as having jumpjets or not, the base speed and agility of their mech and confidence in their awareness to protect their back as soon as anything starts scratching the pain job.

Lights are a case by case basis, but always max their legs for sure.

• Or any other general mech-building issue?

Sometimes less can be more in arming your mech to increase heat efficiency and make it easier to run your mech in the heat of the moment in a match.

And have a focus on what you are looking to do with your mech, such as wanting to deal solid damage then utilize defensive moves, focus on being direct fire support with a high DPS build, or be indirect fire support with LRMs for example.

Also try to match like weapons together and take time in training grounds to set up weapon groups that work for you. And since any unlocked mech efficiencies don't work, you could at least get an idea of how they could feel in a real match.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 10 November 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[Void Angel]

Well, my personal preferences are as follows:

Use XL only when speed is life (lights,) when you feel you need the extra weight and won't be taking a lot of pounding, or when you're sure the chassis has small torsos, like a Cataphract or Battlemaster. In short, be sure you have a reason - otherwise use a standard engine.

CASE is useless with Inner Sphere XL Engines. Do not use - it is a waste of a slot and a half-ton, period.
Ferro-Fibrous is almost never feasible outside of Light chassis, and always saves you less tonnage than Endo-Steel. Use Endo-Steel first, and then add in Ferro-Fibrous armor if you can fit it in.

Double Heat Sinks are superior to singles, because the free heat sinks which are part of the engine (though not the ones you manually add to the 'mech, even if they're required, or placed inside the engine) are true x2 double heat sinks, thus doubling your base effective heat sinks (EHS) with no tonnage or space cost. Very rarely will a 'mech not benefit from Double Heat Sinks (think "dual-Gauss Jaegermech") and for most chassis this should be your first purchase, even before Endo-steel.

Since Heat Sinks that you actually ad to your 'mech's engine manually (as opposed to the 1 HS per 25 engine rating that is a part of the engine itself,) act just like heat sinks placed elsewhere, you should always place extra heat sinks outside the engine first, as long as you have room to do so. This is because a heat sink that is in your arm with your ERPPC has a chance to absorb any critical hits from damage that breaches your armor - always use heat sinks to shield more vital equipment whenever possible.

There are several schools of thought on placing ammunition: I generally put them in my head first, then my legs, with maybe one in my center torso if I really need that many tons. However, ammunition placement is also situational - while virtually no one tries to leg an Atlas, Light 'mech or Centurion legs are routinely targeted. Conversely, Stalker pilots of my acquaintance assure me that they nearly always lose a side torso before the corresponding arm is destroyed. Pay attention to which armor sections are most often breached first, and place ammunition accordingly. Also, place AMS ammunition, if any, in the head - if you're taking head crits, it's probably over anyway, and the head is generally the hardest place to destroy: a perfect place to store ammo which you might not be able to use (and thus get rid of.)

When I build a 'mech, I use Smurfy's Mechlab and start by maxxing armor (under the Tools drop box,) then rounding down to the nearest half-ton by taking armor off the legs. As a general rule, I will not take my leg armor down to less than my forward L/R torsos, and I place most of my armor into the front torso arcs. Some players advocate a 2:1 ratio of forward to rear armor, but I personally have found this to be excessive, and have gradually lowered the amount. On a Battlemaster, for example, I'll put about 16 points on the rear torso, leaving 56 on the front. This allows me to absorb incidental hits and poking attacks from lights while relying on my situational awareness to avoid being cored from behind. Because you and I are different players with different Elos, playing times, and playing styles, you'll need to experiment with this for yourself. Simply pay attention to how often you are seriously damaged from behind, and adjust your armor proportions accordingly.

Heat efficiency is a paramount concern of 'mech design. Use the Weaponlab in Smurfy to get a feel for how much sustained combat you can actually handle with your 'mech, then design/pilot accordingly. As an example, while you certainly can fit two 6 medium pulse lasers, two AC/2s, and a Large pulse laser onto a Battlemaster 1G, it would be nearly impossible to sustain the fire from those weapons in close combat. You would have to refrain from using the AC/2s in close combat, replace the pulse lasers with something cooler (like normal lasers,) or perhaps both. Maximize your firepower whenever you can: if your brawler cannot ever overheat, you need more guns - but if it can only sustain fire with half of its arsenal, chances are you're running too hot.

My final word of general advice is to pay attention to which weapons go in which hardpoints- the variable 'mech geometry on newer (and eventually on all) 'mechs will let you literally see this. Weapons mounted higher on your 'mech are preferable to weapons mounted at waist, chest, or even collarbone level. As an example, in order to place my PPCs above my shoulders instead of at collarbone level for a Battlemaster 1G build, I had to be sure to place the PPCs into the 'mech as the last weapon added to each torso location. Knowing that you should put those PPCs in the torso of your Cataphract 3D instead of its arms can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your build.

Edited by Void Angel, 10 November 2013 - 11:21 PM.

[Dauphni]

Very good suggestions so far, and they don't leave me with much to add to it. The one major design tip I can think of is: know and understand your role and playstyle, and build your Mech accordingly.

A Mech is more than just its assortment of weapons and structural components. Your success in the game also depends in a large part on how you use it. Others have written at length on the various roles you can play are in MWO so I won't repeat that here, but by all means look for it, it's interesting stuff. Keeping this in mind will help you make more focused and streamlined Mechs. For example, your role will tell you whether you need the biggest engine you can take, or whether it's okay to go for a smaller engine that lets you carry more weaponry.

Even when you know your role you still have your own unique playstyle, which will have an effect on the details of your builds. If you're patient and cautious, you can probably make do with less ammo. If you're more aggressive, you could probably benefit from a going up an engine size or two. The way you pilot your Mechs also determines your optimal armour distributions.

A lot of these considerations might seem esoteric at first, but as you grow more comfortable with the game and you get more familiar with their effects, they will let you squeeze every last bit of performance out of your Mechs.

[Bront]

Roughneck45, on 10 November 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

-C.A.S.E with the XL only helps if you are putting ammo in the legs or arm on that side, it will prevent the damage from going into your side torso. Ammo that is crit inside the C.A.S.E will explode and kill you. Really depends on whether you have to put ammo in the arm.

This is incorrect. CASE prevents damage from ammo explosions form moving past the area it's in. Since IS CASE can only go in the Torso, your side torso gets blown out regardless, which is useless for an XL engine.

[Macbrea]

Let's see if I can answer some of these questions:

Regular vs. XL engines:
Ok, so, your looking at the price trying to figure out which is better.. twice the price for half the weight. A mech dies when it loses 3 engine critical slots, it's cockpit or both of it's legs. Now, you will notice on Inner sphere mechs that XL engines move three slots into the Left and Right Torso. There is a thread that shows the hitboxes http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/ You have to evaluate the mech your using to determine how often you will lose the left or right torso vs center torso. Some mechs are particularly know for a truly exposes center torso and well protected left and right torso. The Catapult is a perfect mech for protecting an XL engine.

IMPORTANT NOTE: the current patch is working on opening up the left and right torso some and changing the hit boxes. They are working through the various mechs, so, information in that thread will change. Think of changing that lower portion to be more like a Thong instead of all CT.

C.A.S.E. with XL engines:
Case can only be in the Torso for a Inner Sphere mech. It is useless on an XL engine as it blows out the entire section but prevents damage transfer to the Center Torso. Losing the section will still cost you three engine slots.

Ferro-Fibrous vs Endo-Steel:
Pound for pound Endo-Steel will always be a better purchase then Ferro-Fibrous. On almost every mech you will have Endo-Steel and Double heat sinks. You will have to make a judgement on if you can afford to have another 14 slots on that mech. 95% of the time, you will probably decide the Ferro-Fibrous isn't worth it.

SHS vs DHS
So, here is where everyone will complain. Double heatsinks aren't double Ok, now that we have gotten that out of the way, lets look at what they are. Single heat sinks are 1 heat dissipation and 1 slot. Double heat sinks not in the engine are 1.4 heat dissipation and 3 critical slots. On almost every single mech this is a 1.5 million c-bill fee for playing your mech. You will be running double heat sinks in almost everything. Now, this brings us to the next item, internal heat sinks.

Internal Heatsinks
Ah, this is where the engine choice becomes tricky. if you look at a catapult it can take upto a 315 engine. A very easy engine to get is the 280xl. But the most common engine you will find in them is the 300xl. This is because for every 25 of the engine rating you are allowed one internal heat sink. So, a 280xl engine is 11 internal slots, the 300 is 12 and the 315 is also 12 internal slots. This beings us back to the double heat sinks, they are 1.4 when they are not in the engine. Inside the engine they are actually double heat sinks. This means the more of them you can actually get into the engine the better your heat efficiency will be.

Ammo placement
I will leave this one alone as every single mech pilot has a different opinion on this one. I tend to put them in the order of my cockpit, center torso then legs. I have seen most mech builds start with legs and then go to limbs. I will let someone else debate this one.

Armor placement
Look at the mech your going to play. Some mechs are chicken legged and this means a huge amount of the damage is going to go into those legs. On other ones, with large center torsos you will always want to cap the armor at that location.

I will add two topics you might not have realized.

Engine speed
Speed (kph) = 16.2 * engine rating / mech weight

For instance a catapult with max engine (315):
16.2 * 315 / 65 = 78.5 kph

Torso Twist
Each mech has a different torso twist speed, but these are affected by the size of the engine that they are running and the individual mech. UI 2.0 should give some more information related to this topic per mech.

[Roughneck45]

Bront, on 17 November 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

This is incorrect. CASE prevents damage from ammo explosions form moving past the area it's in. Since IS CASE can only go in the Torso, your side torso gets blown out regardless, which is useless for an XL engine.

Yeah you are right.

It funny, cause thats how I thought it worked, then I did some searching on the forums and found a dev post, but I misread his explanation. Fixed it.

[Redshift2k5]

Always double heatsinks.

Always Endo > Ferro. Some builds can use both but if you need only one, why choose less weight saving for the same slots?

To me, XLs are not just for lights. I think a main construction rule, for me, is "how fast do you want do go and what guns do you want to bring when you get there?" Sometimes this means taking an XL even where you might prefer not to, which then you may need to playtest to make it optimal or otherwise make further revisions (maybe the XL is too much of a liability, so you need to adjust your expectations RE:speed vs loadout).

sometimes it is the playstyle that makes the XL "work" and an adjustment in tactics or placement can make or break a build. How you will use a mech is as important as what you put in it.

Sometimes you are restricted by budget- the XL255 is a pure upgrade to the XL250, but if you don't have the for another XL, you may simply make do with the 250. People tend to share XLs across multiple mechs, and maybe some of your other mechs can't fit a 255, or a mech you bought came with a 250 but not a 255.

CASE? Never. ammo only explodes 10% of the time if it gets a crit, and it may never even receive a crit to begin with. The half ton you can spend elsewhere is going to always be used as opposed to using a CASE which is rarely needed.

[J0anna]

XL vs Standard

Certain mechs have side torso's that are harder to hit - they should get the preference for XL engines. Speed is very, very valuable.

C.A.S.E. is worthless on XL engines - save the slots.

Always start with max armor and go from there. It's ok to shave a bit if you need the weight.

Double heat sinks are almost always better. Use Endo first before FF, use FF only after you have used Endo.

If you are in a slow mech, try to put on some ranged weapons. More often than not, someone will be dictating range to you, so it's nice to be able to return fire. If you're an LRM mech, try to get some anti-light weapons on, and Tag. If you are a fast mech, carrying all short ranged weapons, can work as you will often dictate range.

Macbrea, on 17 November 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Internal Heatsinks
Ah, this is where the engine choice becomes tricky. if you look at a catapult it can take upto a 315 engine. A very easy engine to get is the 280xl. But the most common engine you will find in them is the 300xl. This is because for every 25 of the engine rating you are allowed one internal heat sink. So, a 280xl engine is 11 internal slots, the 300 is 12 and the 315 is also 12 internal slots. This beings us back to the double heat sinks, they are 1.4 when they are not in the engine. Inside the engine they are actually double heat sinks. This means the more of them you can actually get into the engine the better your heat efficiency will be.

I believe you are incorrect about this, only the first 10 engine heat sinks are doubled. Any heat sinks you add past the first 10, whether you put them in the engine or not, remain 1.4x.

Almost all weapons have certain value. Many weapons the 'experts' say are inferior can work well on certain builds. Don't be afraid to use Smurfy or LiSong to experiment and save cbills.

Overtime you will develop thumbrules for how much ammo to carry, I tend to error on the side of bringing more.

Lastly, watch youtube/read mechspecs and these forums to get ideas of what to try.

[Roughneck45]

Moenrg, on 17 November 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

first 10 engine heat sinks are doubled. Any heat sinks you add past the first 10, whether you put them in the engine or not, remain 1.4x.

Correct.

Always take at least a 250 size engine if you can, for the full 10 true double heatsinks.

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 November 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

DodgerH2O, on 10 November 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Regular vs. XL engines
C.A.S.E. with XL engines
Ferro-Fibrous vs Endo-Steel
SHS vs DHS
Internal Heatsinks
Ammo placement
Armor placement

If you plan to be slow or big enough to take a lot of damage, go standard engine. For Cicadas or lighter, XL is pretty much required. It's almost never used in a Centurion, though. Some Shadow Hawk builds go XL, some go STD. Depends on what you want to do. If you're going to drop an AC20 in it, then you NEED the STD engine. That goes for any mech you want to put an AC20 in the torso. But there are also many Shadow Hawk builds with XL engines, built to be able to keep up with some light mechs. It just depends on the role.

CASE is pointless in XL engine mechs. In a STD engine mech, if you want to get away with putting ammo in a side torso (or Gauss rifle), then the 0.5 tons is probably well spent.

FF and ES are essential on light mechs, and kinda pointless on assaults. Remember that each of these takes up 14 critical slots. An AC20 takes 10 by itself, and you'll need 4 tons of ammo to make it worthwhile, so there's 14 critical slots. You may save a few tons, but you just took an AC20 out of your mech. Depends on how many weapons and other items, and how big, you want in your mech.

Internal heat sinks? If they're doubles, then that's the BEST place for them. If they're singles, you may consider having them in the legs instead. When your leg is submerged, any heat sink inside of it is MORE effective. Leg-mounted HS are basically doubles when you're playing in the water. Of course, this does you no good on Terra Therma, Frozen City, or Tourmaline Desert. It's of limited use on Caustic Valley, and it may get you focused on River City. Take that for what it's worth.

IF you can CASE the torso, then that's the best place to hide your ammo. If not, then legs and head. Failing those, center torso is where you've got the most armor to protect it, though that's insta-death if it cooks off. Also, keep in mind your mech's load out. When you go to fighting up-close, which side do you turn to the enemy between *****? If you're in a Cataphract, for instance, and your heavy-hitter weapon is in that right torso spot, then you likely turn your left side to the enemy between shots. So, you'll want your ammo on the right side as much as possible. Right leg, right torso. The good thing about legs is that if your ammo in ONE leg is hit, you still have ammo in the OTHER leg (hopefully). And legs have more armor than do arms. Especially on assault mechs, legs are VERY heavily armored.

Some mechs will sacrifice armor on an unarmed arm (SHD-5M, for instance) in order to save some weight. That arm has no weapon slots, so it's just extra armor against side-on shots. Who cares if you lost the arm? You're still at 100% firepower without it. Same for the Centurions. They'll almost always circle counter-clockwise, in order to show the 'shield arm' to their target between shots. The SHD's big gun is in the LEFT torso, as opposed to the CN9's RIGHT arm, and the HBK's RIGHT torso. So the Shadow Hawk has a bit more use of that left arm than do those other two.

[Macbrea]

Just checked based off, using my Battlemaster with double heat sinks and changing out engines I got the following:

Engine	DHS	HE	HA	HE=1.27*SQRT(HS/HA)
250	10	1.52	14	1.52
275	11	1.57	14	1.57
300	12	1.62	14	1.62
325	13	1.67	14	1.67
350	14	?	14	1.72
375	15	?	14	1.76
400	16	1.81	14	1.81

The last column doubles the first 10, then does 1.4 times for the rest.

My test weapons was 2 LL or 14 Alpha Strike, this is HA.

HE is the in game heat efficiency number.

The ? are because I don't own an engine in that range.

Edited by Macbrea, 17 November 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[TercieI]

Moenrg, on 17 November 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I believe you are incorrect about this, only the first 10 engine heat sinks are doubled. Any heat sinks you add past the first 10, whether you put them in the engine or not, remain 1.4x.

Roughneck45, on 17 November 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Correct.

Always take at least a 250 size engine if you can, for the full 10 true double heatsinks.

EDIT: I AM WRONG HERE, IGNORE THIS POST (except that bit about how nice a manual would be)

I think both of you are slightly off, actually. I believe the devs have said that the first 10, regardless of location, are actually 2.0, 11+ are 1.4.

Boy, a real manual would be nice, eh?

Edited by Terciel1976, 24 November 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Kilrein]

"Regular vs. XL engines"

If I'm in a light mech, it's XL all the time. For mediums, it's a matter of function, loadout and speed. I tend to run XLs in my mediums, except my Hunchbacks. If it's a brawler medium (rare now adays), I run a standard.

"C.A.S.E. with XL engines"

I don't bother with case at all. In this game, it's just not worth the weight and crit space. With XLs, case is a true waste as a side torso with XL, ammo and case, doesn't make a difference as case just prevents the excess damage from transferring inward when an ammo location (that this has any ammo left in it) is hit. The torso is still destroyed and that means three engine hits, killing the mech. Now when Clan XLs come out (only two crit slots per torso) that changes.


"Ferro-Fibrous vs Endo-Steel"

I will put Endo-Steel on every mech I can before putting Ferro-Fibrous. It's better bang for buck in terms of weight savings versus crit space. I will put Ferro-Fibrous on most of my light mechs as internal critical space is not an issue. There are very few mechs that I would not Endo Steel on at a minimum.

"SHS vs DHS"

DHS is a must have on almost every build you can create. There are some corner cases that are better with SHS but those are outliers.

"Internal Heatsinks"

This is a function of internal space needs. I always fill the engine with heatsinks if I have them. Depending on the build, I may increase the engine size/type (to XL) to be able to hide more heat sinks in the engine.

"Ammo placement"

Head first because if my head is taking that much damage, then it's not gonna matter. Then legs. I will put ammo in the torso but only on more long ranged, higher ammo consumption load outs.

"Armor placement"

I run about 20% of my armor on the rear but will reduce it to as low as 10% for a) mechs that have jump jets as I will jump turn to hide my rear and/or light mechs as I will use their maneuverability to protect my backside.


"Or any other general mech-building issue? I know a simple thing that some people miss are XL engine fittings. Often I'll see an XL 250 used in a build when the XL 255 would fit better, for the same weight and nearly the same cost you can move faster, every little bit counts. The XL 275 and 280 have the same relationship, but with the relatively recent changes to Raven and Hunchback engine caps, the 275 has the advantage of fitting into more potential mech loadouts."

Definitely pay attention to break points in engine sizes. You definitely nailed the important ones. I tend to build a weapons loadout I like, max armor the chassis, then look at engine options and resulting speeds. It's at that point, I start making compromises in loadouts.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Another thing to keep in mind:

In the CASE discussion, it's important to remember that Gauss rifle ammo is NOT explosive. It does not need CASE regardless of its location, as it CANNOT explode and damage the rest of the mech.

The Gauss rifle itself, however, may explode when hit. It, too, can be contained in a CASE and prevented from damaging the remainder of the mech if it does explode.

ALL other ammo in the game so far CAN explode, including AMS. NO other weapon, loaded or not, can explode when hit, including AMS.

I forget where I found it before, but there IS a base damage/round number for AMS ammo for purpose of calculating ammo explosion damage.

THAT is usually the first ammo I'll pack in my mech's head. Chances are, if the head armor has been stripped then I've already come under a LOT of missile fire. If I'm getting hit in the head structure, I'm probably not going to make it anyway, but there's usually little chance that there's a significant amount of AMS ammo left by then. That, or I'm in a light mech, and whatever just head shot me could just as easily core me with a single round.

[Shade4x]

DodgerH2O, on 10 November 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

What advice would you give a completely new but intelligent player for optimizing/streamlining builds?

Rule 1) don't be a tonnage waste.

An Atlas with LRM's is a tonnage waste, you could build the same load out on a smaller mech with less armor. Just the same, making 70 kph locus with a big load out means your team is down a scout and capper. Keep in mind the other team is balanced on your tonnage. A blackjack with an AC/20 and 3 med lasers is exceptionally deadly for the tonnage.

Rule 2) Know your Role.
You are either going to be a DPS Machine, a sniper, a brawler, a scout an LRM boat, a flanker or a combo of these roles. You'll often see bad builds which i call confused builds. Like an atlas with an LRM 20 and an AC/20. Realisticly you wont be using both as that gives you 90 meters of effective range in both weapons. Pick one main role to fill and minor in another if you have the extra tonnage and slots.

Rule 3) Watch how you die
Most people skip this part, and its perhaps the most important part in a good build. If you watch at the end of the match, you can tell how you died and what parts got low. If you find yourself getting backed in your left and right shoulders 50% of the time, increase the armor back there. If you are almost never legged, then try decreasing the armor. Playing with the armor not only adds survivability and adapts to your playstyle, it can also free up a ton or two.

rule 4) Know how to XL.
Some mech's have tiny shoulders, so XL's make since. A general rule is the lighter the mech, the more it makes since to XL. The other rule is if most of your loadout is in one arm, go XL. If you lose that arm your useless anyways. Again, watch your deaths. If your getting CT'ed 80% of the time, switch to XL, or learn to arm tank (twisting to spread the damage to your arms)

rule 5) Fill your slots.
When you lose armor, and get shot, you take crit damage. It's basicly a roll to see what gets hit in that location. Lets say you have an hunchback with 9 standard heat sinks in the left shoulder and one 1 standard heat sink, both with XL engines and no armor. If both get hit with an AC/5 the hunchback with the 1 heat sink has a 75% to lose the xl engine and die. The hunchy with 9 heatsinks has a 33% chance to lose his engine. Most everything has 5 hp, so a double heat sink gets 3 slots but dies with 1 AC/5 hit. 3 Standard heat sinks will have the same chance, but if you destroy one, there are still 3 others.

rule 6) Don't understimate small lasers

Small lasers are perhaps the most underestimated weapon in the game. They have a high dps if your in range, and provide almost no heat. I cannot tell you how many times i ran out of ammo on a brawler atlas with nothing left but 2 small lasers and was able to still keep on killing. They are a brawlers best backup weapon.

Rule 7) Don't LRM without Advanced Sensor Range and Target Decay modules
I would like to add TAG lasers as well, but you can do well without them. However these 2 modules vastly increase your ability to get and keep lock on's. If your planning to LRM, make sure you got these equiped

Rule 8) Always use an AMS.
AMS's negate a lot of damage for not only you, but your team as well. Not only do they stop LRM's, but they can stop some SRM's shot at longer ranges. It's very much worth having for 1 1/2 tons.

Rule 9) Speed is survivability
When your thinking your mech dies alot, it's often because its to slow. Not only does speed allow you to get out of bad situations, it helps you twist faster to spread the damage. It's the reason the light mech's don't die instantly. Your going to run into 50 kph 6 Ac/2 Jagermech's and 4x AC/5 Cataphracts. If your going 80-90 kph, you'll just get behind them and kill them. If your going 60, your going to have to take them head on.

Rule 10) Jump Jets are manueverability
Being able to 180 turn, or position yourself on a mountain, or fly over a guy and backstab him are seriously huge advantages. There are builds that use 1 JJ to be able to corner fast, while others use 8 to avoid all enemy fire. Keep in mind, mech's have a hard time looking up or down. If you put on jump jets, and time it when the enemy is going to shoot his main weapons group, often they will miss or just hit your legs. 1 jump jet is perhaps the single best investment per weight on any mech.

Rule 11) You don't have to use all your hardpoints
I can't tell you how many times i've seen a guy with 2 machine guns, 3 flamers and a large laser and an AC/2 with 1 ton of ammo. You would be much better off ditching the machine guns and adding 2 more tons into the AC/2 ammo. Or taking the flamers and machine guns and giving it a few small lasers or 2 large lasers. Trust me, 2 minutes into a match you would rather have the ac/2 ammo over the machine guns.

Now when you figured out your role, select a main weapon set. There are certain combo's in the game that do very well. 3x AC2's, 4 ac/5's, 3 SRM 6's with artimis, 6 med lasers, 2 ppc's and 2 ac/5's, 2 lbx-10's, lbx and srms. The key to these is to compliment the other weapons. for instance 2 ppc's and 2 ac/5's is one click and a 30 damage ranged pinpoint strike. it also has 4 roles to destroy something if the armor is exposed. I've found chain fireing to be useless the majority of the time, unless your trying to shake the hell out of someones screen with ac's or lrm's. That being said ill list a few unorthodox weapon combo's.

Jackhammer
AC/2 or AC/5 and LBX-10. If you can stay on target, the effect of this will constantly shake the enemy's screen, Every time the LBX goes off, it will shake their screen disproportionately. It's extreamly hard for the enemy to aim and if your moving, they will generally miss with AC's, or spread out their laser damage.

Energy Cannon
2 LLasers 1 PPC or 2 PPC and 1 LLC. This is a 28 damage strike that allows for a little drag. It allows for a quick correct if you miss, and gives you a long range strike that can do decent against faster mech's that you have a hard time hitting. It's effecient enough to run on 12-14 double heat sink builds without making it a one shot wonder. Grab an AC/5 or similar weapon for sustained damage and you got a very workable build

Artimis Shotgun
LBX, 3SRM/6 with artimis. The is exceptionally deadly at around 150 meters. you can generally get everything on a center torso of a medium or heavier mech. This is a close range 46 damage alpha with very manageable heat and a fast reload. Add a med laser or two and if your good you can 2 shot an atlas.

A note about LRMs. Each enemy with ams shoots down about 3 missles per with their AMS. That means LRM 5's are useless right? Not exactly. No one really turns off their AMS. So shooting a salvo of LRM 5's can often tell you where the enemy is just by watching the lrm's get shot down. In addition to this, if you are charing and have distance to cover, they are a perfect weapon to close the gap as if they do hit, they shake the screen. They are the only LRM that really can hit a light mech well, and can get you a lot of assists. for 3 tons it's worth it.

Follow those basic rules and you'll have a good solid mech. Keep in mind, it's often not how you build the mech but how you play the mech that is built. I've never seen a SRM build do good that doesn't charge.

[MuKen]

I think a lot of people making the transition through being an intermediate level player should consider that they are likely focusing too much on sustainable damage, and not enough on burst damage. If going at full bore doesn't drive your heat up in a hurry, then you have too many heatsinks and not enough firepower. A good build can dump a good chunk of its heat capacity into a burst of damage on demand.

Maximizing sustainable damage makes a lot of sense to beginner brawlers because they see each other facing off in a circle of death in the open, and the one who can keep going the longest wins. As you get experienced enough to make proper use of torso twisting, it becomes all about burst damage. If one guy can drop bombs then wait awhile to recover heat, but the other guy can maintain a steady pelting for 20 seconds straight, the guy who can drop bombs wins. Because he faces his enemy, drops a chunk of damage into his core, then torso twists away. The other guy can pound away all day, but if he's hitting the side torsos and arms, he's got three or more times as much health to cut through, and no mech has that much more dps than another to make that a good idea. Experienced pilots only give each other brief windows to do as much damage as they can to each other's cores, so it's all about burst damage.

If you're not a brawler, but rather a long range mech, this is even MORE true, because you can take cover and drop out of combat entirely. The guy that drops a ton of damage, then hides in safety while he recovers his heat is much more useful than the one that has to stay out in the open at length to meet his damage potential.

Edited by MuKen, 22 November 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Terciel1976, on 17 November 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

I think both of you are slightly off, actually. I believe the devs have said that the first 10, regardless of location, are actually 2.0, 11+ are 1.4.

No, only the engine HS are true doubles.

HS you install on your mech outside the engine are all 1.4, including the ones you may put into your engine slots.

[TercieI]

Roughneck45, on 24 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

No, only the engine HS are true doubles.

HS you install on your mech outside the engine are all 1.4, including the ones you may put into your engine slots.

Looks like you're right. I did some searching and while I can find the Breakdown post supporting what you're saying, I can't find the post I was sure I was remembered in an AtD that supported what I thought. I also did some experiments in both Smurfy and MWO Mechlab and they both indicate better cooling from 10 in the engine than from some combination equaling 10. I've edited my post above, spreading misinformation is never my goal, sorry for the mistake.

2 add'l things:

1) Holy cats, we need better documentation
2) My contempt for the XL245 just keeps growing