118 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Nimura Nekogami, on 01 December 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

The problem stacks if you piloting non JJ Mechs and a 4 man premade group is playing like this. I dont want to get rid of it, but it shouldnt be a dominant gameplay style.

It is dominant (in the 12-mans anyway) simply because the mainly "monkey see, monkey do" players over there would rather copy than innovate.

[White Panther]

Kinda hard to "innovate" when the brawling weapons suck right? We need the tools to work with to be able to beat the 2ppc, 2ACx setup. SRM's, pulse lasers and lbx are bad guns.

[Greyboots]

omegagun, on 29 November 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Its all you can do in this game atm

Anyone who actually believes this hasn't come to grips with the game yet. Even if it were exaggerating for effect it's just WAY out there.

I talk a lot about balance in this game in an abstract way (and sometimes I can be caught playing devil's advocate) but the truth is that balance just isn't that far out, needing no more than tweaking rather than structural changes.

White Panther, on 01 December 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Kinda hard to "innovate" when the brawling weapons suck right? We need the tools to work with to be able to beat the 2ppc, 2ACx setup.

You've got access to exactly the tool you need at your disposal and it's called "playing the game". Aka building player skill.

Quote

SRM's, pulse lasers and lbx are bad guns.

The good news is that your loadout is under your control. Just use something else. IF your hardpoints don't allow for it, groovy. Pick a mech with the right hardpoints for your playstyle.

You can use a hammer to drive in screws but you'll get better results with a screwdriver. You can drive in nails with a screwdriver but you'll get better results with a hammer. These aren't "bad guns". They're just screwdrivers when what you are really looking for is a hammer. Pick a mech that has hardpoints that allow you to equip hammers and you'll do just fine.

Edited by Greyboots, 01 December 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[GoatHILL]

The heavier the mech the harder it should be on the legs to hop up and down like a pogo stick.

[White Panther]

Greyboots, on 01 December 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Anyone who actually believes this hasn't come to grips with the game yet. Even if it were exaggerating for effect it's just WAY out there.

I talk a lot about balance in this game in an abstract way (and sometimes I can be caught playing devil's advocate) but the truth is that balance just isn't that far out, needing no more than tweaking rather than structural changes.



You've got access to exactly the tool you need at your disposal and it's called "playing the game". Aka building player skill.



The good news is that your loadout is under your control. Just use something else. IF your hardpoints don't allow for it, groovy. Pick a mech with the right hardpoints for your playstyle.

You can use a hammer to drive in screws but you'll get better results with a screwdriver. You can drive in nails with a screwdriver but you'll get better results with a hammer. These aren't "bad guns". They're just screwdrivers when what you are really looking for is a hammer. Pick a mech that has hardpoints that allow you to equip hammers and you'll do just fine.

The competitive builds right now are the way they are for a reason, which you don't really seem to understand. Why don't you go out in your 12 man and try your brawlers and frankenmechs against the 2 PPC/2AC highlanders, 3D's, and shawks. You will quickly realise skill has nothing to do with it.

[VikingN1nja]

hopefully if lobby/tournament in game is made we can have brawler only etc or sniper games etc.

[Greyboots]

White Panther, on 01 December 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

The competitive builds right now are the way they are for a reason, which you don't really seem to understand.

I understand completely. Peopele often like to fall back to that position. I differ in opinion so I MUST have a lack of understanding. I assure you it's not the case. They are the way they are for many reasons.

The tactical reason these teams are the way they are is because it's the brain dead DPS, mistake minimising "safe" approach. Any noob can advance in a wall of steel.

Highlander? Second largest mech and fits 2 ACs and 2 PPCs. So not only is it good firepower, it's the second-largest amount of armour in the game.

Cataphract? Again, second largest Heavy. Solid firepower on the second largest pool of armour for the class.

Shadowhawk? Largest mech in the class, for solid firepower and largest pool of armour available.

IF you think ARMOUR doesn't play a large role in this equation and mech selection? You don't know half as much as you think you do and I'd slow down before trying to tell someone else they don't understand.

Also, look at the mechs. Every single one is jump capable. So not only do they have the weapon and armour advantage, they also have a mobility advantage.

Lastly, every mech can run that setup on a STD engine. So not only do they have the armour advantage, they can survive the destruction of a torso. This makes them VERY hard teams to actually kill so the relatively low firepower will win the day through it's staying there long enough and concentrating fire.

Again, attributing it all to weapons is insanely short-sighted to say the least.

So what we have is you assuming that the weapon loadouts are all that matters and I'm the one that doesn't understand?

dude... Let me know when you are ready to get out of the kiddie pool.

Quote

Why don't you go out in your 12 man and try your brawlers and frankenmechs against the 2 PPC/2AC highlanders, 3D's, and shawks. You will quickly realise skill has nothing to do with it.

I have roflstomped these teams with PUGS because of the inherent weaknesses in both strategy and the mechs involved. Because not only can I pull it all paart to understand why they win, I can also pull it apart to understand how to win against them.

The truth is that you don't have half the skill you think you do. This game has 2 skillsets:

Building effective mechs and teams
Driving mechs and killing stuff.

Unless you have a handle on both? Be very careful about telling someone else they don't understand.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Mystere, on 01 December 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

It is dominant (in the 12-mans anyway) simply because the mainly "monkey see, monkey do" players over there would rather copy than innovate.

People want to win...they will do whatever it is that will provide it. I see no problem in this. I do however feel that tonnage caps/weight restrictions, etc will be the only real answer...not nerfs, not buffs.

[White Panther]

When did I ever say its just the weapons? If you really understand the competitive builds (which your last post apparently shows) you would realize other weapons could use a buff to help bring more builds into that category. I'm not questioning your own skill so I'm not sure why you are making assumptions about my own skill level. I play on an elite team that participates in various leagues, our team record speaks for itself as well as my own stats so I'm not sure who is in the "kiddie pool" here. Who are you and what team do you play for? I don't think I have seen you in game yet which leads me to believe we are talking about two different elo's here, sorry to say..

[Mystere]

xMEPHISTOx, on 01 December 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

People want to win...they will do whatever it is that will provide it. I see no problem in this. I do however feel that tonnage caps/weight restrictions, etc will be the only real answer...not nerfs, not buffs.

Wanting to win is perfectly fine. But, I'd rather people do SOMETHING ELSE instead of copying, and copying, and ...

[TOPGUN Stinger]

White Panther, on 01 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

When did I ever say its just the weapons? If you really understand the competitive builds (which your last post apparently shows) you would realize other weapons could use a buff to help bring more builds into that category. I'm not questioning your own skill so I'm not sure why you are making assumptions about my own skill level. I play on an elite team that participates in various leagues, our team record speaks for itself as well as my own stats so I'm not sure who is in the "kiddie pool" here. Who are you and what team do you play for? I don't think I have seen you in game yet which leads me to believe we are talking about two different elo's here, sorry to say..

[Khobai]

Quote

It is dominant (in the 12-mans anyway) simply because the mainly "monkey see, monkey do" players over there would rather copy than innovate.

Innovation only works if you have the tools to counter the dominant build. We do not have those tools. If for example we had reflective armor and the dominant weapon was PPCs, we could all respond by using reflective armor to change the meta away from PPCs. That is how a functional metagame operates... players are given the tools to respond to the dominant build by designing a counter-dominant build. MWO does not give us those tools so were perpetually locked into the same cycle until the devs decide to patch it.

Edited by Khobai, 01 December 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Daemir]

Greyboots, I cannot follow your logic here. You say people aren't innovative and that they have the tools to counter jumpsniper meta, yet then go on to list exactly why the builds used in said meta are superior. So, where did the innovative counters go?

Yes, that's exactly why the meta is what it is, because the tools to counter that aren't there. Even less after the arty/airstrike buff, because now if you try brawlrush into the jumpsniper team, they can bombard you on your way to them every inch of the way while doing what they'd be doing anyway. It doesn't take many well placed air strikes to completely crush a rush attempt through a choke, and the team with the range and mobility can make sure that's where the engage happens, or they will suppress you down with the sniping.

Also, I've seen White Panther several times when playing the game, but I can't say I'd seen ayone with your name. Either you play on higher elo than the members of top teams in the game + the bloody Lords alliance and Mechworks or you play lower where anything can happen. Which 12 man teams have you beat with your pugs lately?

[Mystere]

Has anyone tried organizing a 12-man team with each player carrying both an artillery and air strike module? I heard it works wonders. That's a potential of 9600 damage right there.

Erish II, on 01 December 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Even less after the arty/airstrike buff, because now if you try brawlrush into the jumpsniper team, they can bombard you on your way to them every inch of the way while doing what they'd be doing anyway. It doesn't take many well placed air strikes to completely crush a rush attempt through a choke, and the team with the range and mobility can make sure that's where the engage happens, or they will suppress you down with the sniping.

Hold a second! Bombardment can work both ways. As such, do you mean to tell me that no one has been able to use that 9600 damage potential against poptart teams? Really?

Edited by Mystere, 01 December 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Greyboots]

White Panther, on 01 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I play on an elite team that participates in various leagues, our team record speaks for itself as well as my own stats so I'm not sure who is in the "kiddie pool" here. Who are you and what team do you play for? I don't think I have seen you in game yet which leads me to believe we are talking about two different elo's here, sorry to say..

I'm not necessarily in the same country or time zone as you are so... It wouldn't be surprising that you haven't seen me often enough to remember. Were you just trying to prove your superiority or did you actually have a point?

Besides, yes, I've killed you more than once and won against your teams more than once. Accidents will happen maybe?

[White Panther]

Again, what team are you on and where are your screenshots? What league have you beaten us in? I have never seen you before.. My point is the same is Khobai and Erish, I'm still waiting on your counters to the meta builds so where are they?

[Greyboots]

White Panther, on 01 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

I play on an elite team that participates in various leagues, our team record speaks for itself as well as my own stats so I'm not sure who is in the "kiddie pool" here. Who are you and what team do you play for? I don't think I have seen you in game yet which leads me to believe we are talking about two different elo's here, sorry to say..

I'm not necessarily in the same country or time zone as you are so... It wouldn't be surprising that you haven't seen me often enough to remember. Were you just trying to prove your superiority or did you actually have a point?

Besides, yes, I've killed you more than once and won against your teams more than once. Accidents will happen maybe?

Erish II, on 01 December 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Greyboots, I cannot follow your logic here. You say people aren't innovative and that they have the tools to counter jumpsniper meta, yet then go on to list exactly why the builds used in said meta are superior. So, where did the innovative counters go?

At least someone gets it.

But: Good does not necessarily = superior. Unlike White's intimation that I think everything is fine, I never said everything was hunkey dory and I don't think it is either.

But it's not as bad as many are making it out to be either.

What do I want? I want an end to the endless tennis match where the ball is either in one end of the court or the other and everything is ruled by the FOTM. I've had that in my last however many years of online PC gaming and I'm kind of sick of it.

Still, I just don't think a lot of people really get it. The pinpoint meta isn't going away. Even if these other weapons are brought into the fold, what's it actually going to change? Nothing but the visual effects.

There are 12 mechs on the opposing team and if even half of them have a single AC and decide to all aim for your center torso at once you are going down. It literally CANNOT be "fixed".

Mechwarrior games, like Battletech games before them, are games where tonnage matters. You are NEVER going to play in tournaments where the top 2 mechs of each class are 90% of the mechs you see. Because the game matches CLASS instead of tonnage? These mechs are at a clear advantage and using anything else in tournament play is, essentially, "bad".

When Tonnage limits come into play things are going to change. There's no point is changing anything right now because tonnage limits are going to shake things up. If you join a match and the enemy wants to use the mechs that White describes? You can screw that up for them in the lobby...

THEN we will see the true balance of weapon Vs weapon and ton Vs ton isntead of "best of each class" Vs anything else.

Highlander is a good choice on a lot of fronts. Almost every single one can put 2 ACs in one hand and 2 Energy on the other. Thsi shoudl obviously be a drawback because "arms can get blown off" but how often does that happen in tournament play? I'm almost ALWAYS torso'd out.

So the highlander is a great mech not only because of it's loadout but ALSO because we are playing MWO on hit tables designed to work in a board/Roleplaying game where hits are largely random. Yes?

All you can play is a killing game so the best killing weapons will ALWAYS be the meta. "Fixing" other weapons won't actually change anything, you'll be playing the same way to a different light show is all.

The problems with this game are profound.

[Greyboots]

White Panther, on 01 December 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Again, what team are you on and where are your screenshots? What league have you beaten us in? I have never seen you before.. My point is the same is Khobai and Erish, I'm still waiting on your counters to the meta builds so where are they?

No and no.

And no again. Our counters to those metas are OUR competitive edge and I'd have to be some sort of rube to hand them over. I can be argumentative, pigheaded and stubborn but I'm not daft.

The only point to me outlying that stuff was to show I had a deeper understanding than you intimated. No more and no less.

At any rate, let's agree to part ways and let it lie before the devs start thinking about editing our posts or locking the thread. Sound like a good idea? Does to me.

Edited by Greyboots, 01 December 2013 - 07:48 PM.

[White Panther]

You have no competitive edge because you don't play competitively, or you would at least tell us your unit and give screen shots to back up what say. You don't have any good counters because that's why the meta builds are actually the meta builds. I never questioned your skill in first place but somehow you got all mad and brought that topic up, to an experienced competitive player. I get your point that you have more of an understanding than what I first posted when I questioned it, and I acknowledged that in my next post (which you seem have missed).

[TOPGUN Stinger]

Maverick: Too close for missles ppc's, I'm switching to guns ac's.