127 replies to this topic

[Troutmonkey]

DISCLAIMER: I cannot see any active MG threads. I also havn't seen any for a while. Also INB4 "MGs suck in TT so they should be useless in MWO". Nobody wants to hear about TT again.

Hi guys,

Recently I went back to my Cicada 3C, which has no choice except to mount multiple machine guns, and found them to be completely dissapointing. I was getting decent damage, but only because of the LL I also equipped. In a recent game I spent over 2000 rounds and 2 minutes trying to kill one ©hampion ATLAS, and just couldn't do it, even though the pilot was almost oblivious to my presense and no one else interrupted for the whole two minutes (when I was eventually killed by 5 of his team mates). The last time I used my 3C was just after MGs got buffed, but before the debuff. At that point I think they felt just right, with them doing reasonable damage but being limited by a tiny range, and by requiring you constantly face the enemy, meaning you couldn't torso twist.

My Cicada 3M uses a single MG which is mostly useless, but I had 1.5T free and couldn't think of a better way to spend it (already had AMS).

Apart from the Champion spiders that I seemed to get grouped with every game, I almost never see MGs around. I believe that with a small buff, MGs could be somewhat useful and used again, and weapon variety on the battelfield is never a bad thing.

What do you guys think?

Edited by Troutmonkey, 01 December 2013 - 03:01 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I would like to see machine guns do less damage against armour but more damage against internals as well as the increased crit seeking mechanic.

Basically give it a real niche that is actually good. An internal tearer - but would plink off armour with crappier damage.

Just my 2c - if that was too hard then a slight damage buff would still be appropriate

[MrJJ]

umm.... mgs do some nice crits to internals. They finally work as intended just need to strip the armor off and they will shred just about anything.

[Mike McSullivan]

While piloting my LCT-1V i was thinking the same like the OP. But after dozens of games i realized that they are fine. Stripping off Arms, legs, torsi works. Sure, for that weight (0,5+1t ammo) you will possibly have other options. But MGs are not for highpinpoint or dps. They annoy people(!) and they do internal damage. it senough for me

[Tahribator]

You need open internals to truly enjoy machine guns. They're bad when fired against armored opponents, but anything with open internals will run away from 4 MG's. You'll tear that component apart in no time.

Cicada 3C is actually a good platform for MG's, you can afford a big energy weapon like a PPC or LPL to punch through armor and let the MG's do their thing. With other MG mechs like Locust-1V and Spider-5K, you're extremely dependent on your team to do damage.

Edited by Tahribator, 01 December 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I think the constant stream of bullets is what is hampering it most.

I'd tweak it into 1 second long bursts followed by a 1 second cooldown or something like that. You might actually be able (or need to) lower the DPS and it would still be more viable, since it finally gives the player a chance to torso twist without losing damage output.

[stjobe]

Two things will always keep the MG sub-par:
* Constant-fire mechanic
* Projectile spread

The constant-fire mechanic means you have to face your opponent 100% of the time; not a tactic for living long and prospering, to steal a phrase from another IP.

The projectile spread means you won't hit what you aim at, and that theoretical DPS number is grossly inflated. At 120m, the spread is enough to cover a Commando from top to toe with hits.

I'm not a fan of the crit-seeker mechanic the devs chose for the MG; in TT the MG was just a regular damage-dealer just like any other weapon. In fact, it was a short-range, light-weight AC/2. But as the devs do what they want, it's now a "crit weapon".

The MG either needs a slight damage buff, or its spread removed. Having it reworked to burst-fire is probably too much to hope for, even if that would be ideal (as would reworking every ballistic but the Gauss Rifle to be burst-fire, but that's for another thread). So that's my vote: Either a small damage buff or spread removed. That's all it needs.

[MustrumRidcully]

Asmudius Heng, on 01 December 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

I would like to see machine guns do less damage against armour but more damage against internals as well as the increased crit seeking mechanic.

Basically give it a real niche that is actually good. An internal tearer - but would plink off armour with crappier damage.

Just my 2c - if that was too hard then a slight damage buff would still be appropriate

Crits now also increase structural damage, and MGs have a higher crit chance than other weapons, so they already do more damage against structure than against armor.

[Victor Morson]

They need to make it's damage come from burst fire.

i.e. give it a much higher fire/damage rate, but also make it so you can only hold down the shots for a few seconds.

If they did this, it wouldn't have the "DPS comes from non-stop direct-aiming at the location" and about quick passes, making the gun a hundred times more useful.

[Alek Ituin]

As a hardcore Locust 1V pilot, the MG needs some love. Double the RoF, double the damage, do SOMETHING.

Having 4x MG's (3 tons of ammo) and an MLas isn't even enough to effectively combat another Light 'Mech, let alone anything heavier!

[Redshift2k5]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

My Cicada 3M uses a single MG which is mostly useless, but I had 1.5T free and couldn't think of a better way to spend it (already had AMS).

Here's your problem.

A single MG is the ballistic equivalent of a single small laser. How much do you expect a single small laser to do? It isn't very much.

MGs are pretty decent where they are except not when used as a single sad machine gun. The damage and crit-seeking of a single MG is not worth the downside (facing a target to present your CT, low range, etc). When you multiply that effect by bringing more then it begins to be more effective.

Either 4 MGs, or 2-3 MGs on a DPS build that is already facing the target a lot to output it's maximum DPS is where they begin to be an effective. I've never seen anyone run a single MG on a Cicada. MG Spiders abound, as well as some Locusts, and MG Jagers. Basically only mechs that have at least four ballistic slots.

In theory the Tbolts and Battlemasters can bring two but I don't think anyone really builds then this way.

[Diego Angelus]

Alek Ituin, on 01 December 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

As a hardcore Locust 1V pilot, the MG needs some love. Double the RoF, double the damage, do SOMETHING.

Having 4x MG's (3 tons of ammo) and an MLas isn't even enough to effectively combat another Light 'Mech, let alone anything heavier!

Well I don't agree with you I saw and piloted spiders with 4mg and damn if played well those things kick *** buff it more and i think we might have a problem. I'm not sure about that .

[Victor Morson]

Redshift2k5, on 01 December 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

A single MG is the ballistic equivalent of a single small laser. How much do you expect a single small laser to do? It isn't very much.

But by that same token, 6 MGs are NOWHERE NEAR as good as 6 Small Lasers, even when you can mount them. Not even in the same league.

Diego Angelus, on 01 December 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Well I don't agree with you I saw and piloted spiders with 4mg and damn if played well those things kick *** buff it more and i think we might have a problem. I'm not sure about that .

No, he is right, MGs are awful and "kicking ***" with them is kind of a relative joke.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Get better because they are more than fine. Been killed by the best pilots with machine guns.

[Urdasein]

You are true, to use MG's, you must face the ennemy.

So... i play this build:
- screenshake from AC5
- smoke and blind from AC2
- nearly heatless,
- high dps
- ... and yeah, fragile as a Jag.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...870b5b005b6e50f

[GRiPSViGiL]

I feel that machine guns are in a good place. In my eyes they are not and never should be a main weapon. I have added machines to every mech that I can because even 1 helps crit out internals on exposed areas. In fact dropping AMS which I have an every mech makes this easy to do so long as you ave a hard point. All of my brawling and DPS builds carry MGs.

Edit: Just because MGs require a lot of face time doesn't mean you can't torso twist to benefit from them.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 01 December 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[xCico]

In current AC and PPC meta, yes they are weak
Nerf PPCs, buff SRMs and machine guns will be fine.

[Troutmonkey]

Mudhutwarrior, on 01 December 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Get better because they are more than fine. Been killed by the best pilots with machine guns.

I've been killed by much lesser pilots using anything else. Unless that spiders lance mance shred my armour first, those MGs won't do a whole lot to me. If not for the LL usually attached to those spiders, and the fact that they usually call in LRM support, I would totally ignore most MG spiders and call it a day.

[Demos]

They need something else.
Mechanic should be altered as described in several posts here.

Alternately, the cone of fire should be reduced or the damage increased to 0.12.

[Thorqemada]

"Two things will always keep the MG sub-par:
* Constant-fire mechanic
* Projectile spread"

MGs are "Hitscan" according to the Devs - that means they work like Lasers and the visual are fluff, you can perfectly mix them with Lasers.
Simply aim directly at your target and ignore the delay of the bulletstream!

PS: "Quotes" no longer work for me - what is up with that?

Edited by Thorqemada, 01 December 2013 - 06:09 AM.