14 replies to this topic

[Funky Bacon]

so I started thinking the other day (dangerous, I know.) about certain things in the MechWarrior universe, especially about mechs and what happens according to the lore if you do certain things.

so lets just get on with it.

According to lore... (not ingame mechanics...)

1. What happens if you over equip a mech beyond its max tonnage? Say, load a catapult with 70 tons of equipment when it is a 65 ton mech?

2. What happens if you don't use up all the tonnage? will a 60 ton mech with a 300 engine and only 50 tons of weight loaded go as quick as a fully loaded 50 tonner using a 300 engine?

3. Why do a tiny 20 ton mech have the same internal space as a huge 100 ton mech? (if not more due to lack of hand and lower arm actuators.)

4. How does a mech counterbalance the unbalanced weight from loading all weapons on one side? Energy/ballistic loaded highlander for example. or why not a Yen-Lo-Wang with a 14 ton heavy cannon loaded in the arm and nothing in the other side?

[Grisha]

1. I have always equated it to a fork lift lifting beyond its load capacity, a lot of things break/burst or become unbalanced.

2. We always played that unused tonnage increased the mechs speed. There was a formula, no idea what is now.

3. I figured it was to help game play and balance/simplicity.

4. Gyros, more gyros, and the pilot under the neuro-helmet. During gameplay if your mech lost a lot of armor and weapon tonnage you had to roll to see if you stayed upright.

One from me now... Is this the Funkybacon from Eve?


Grisha
3rd Takata Lancers

[Bagheera]

Working strictly from memory using TT game rules/fluff, others can comment if any of these are further answered in novels, etc.

1. Can't happen. Once you reach the tonnage limit you are done building. A mech over it's weight limit would never be on the table.

2. Nothing. Don't remember if this was strictly verboten in TT rules, but more importantly weight reduction does not increase top speed in vehicles. Weight reduction improves acceleration/deceleration and can improve handling characteristics if done correctly. In other words, reducing overall weight will not cause the legs of a battlemech to articulate any faster. (this was how we played it, though "House Rules" vary from group to group)

3. 1980s Sci-Fi "Science" and Game Balance.

4. Not addressed from what I recall, though perhaps novels address this somewhere
(oh yeah, forgot about that set of pilot rolls)



(edits)

Edited by Bagheera, 01 December 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

1. Nobody ever did it as far as I remember.

2. According to the lore, the computers controlling a 'Mech are programmed with what tonnage it's supposed to be and what the speed limits are. They are designed to only go a certain speed no matter whether the 'Mech is fully equipped or not.

3. In the lore, they don't. It's purely a game-mechanics thing. There are optional rules in an official expansion where critical slots are limited by weight class (lights have the least amount and only assaults have the default amount).

4. A MechWarrior wears a neurohelmet which connects his sense of balance to the gyro. By default, there are no piloting rolls for an unbalanced loadout. There are only rolls if you take a certain amount of damage in a turn (20 points IIRC).

[Funky Bacon]

I see. Thank for the replies.

But for question 1 again there must have been some instance in lore when someone tried loading more than it was built for. And I doubt loading one more ton of ammo over the limit would cause it to break down and It is war after all, some pilots are likely to not play by the rules set for them and try loading some extra firepower or ammo in their mechs. Must be some rules for it somewhere (even if they'd be un-official rules).

2. Yeah that would make sense for the mech to operate at one set speed at all time to avoid odd behavior during battle.

4. Think I understand. Still, I kinda think of it as trying to run around with a fully loaded grocery bag in one hand and nothing in the other. xD

And no, Grisha. I am not the DJ FunkyBacon. Although I do get that question a lot.

[Durant Carlyle]

No rules for overloading that I can recall -- whether optional or base rules. This was probably also covered by the programming of the 'Mech computers -- they would refuse to function rather than risk overloading damage. *shrug*

If we had an internal gyroscope, we would have much better balance too. I remember this fun gyroscope toy from when I was a kid -- set it to spinning and you could balance it on a piece of string. I can easily imagine a multi-ton gyro balancing 20 tons on one side and zero tons on the other just fine, especially with a human sense of balance controlling it.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 01 December 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

1. According to lore, bad things happened. Sometimes the structure held, but even if it did actuators would fail. The original fluff for the Sunder describes both normal results of such additions.

TRO:3058 said:

...-- the Sunder was intended to carry twenty more tons of equipment than the Clan Loki and Thor OmniMechs on which it is based. The engineers at Luthien Armor Works believed they could easily add this extra weight, and it is true that the additional stress did not cause catastrophic failures in the skeleton. However, the Sunder's actuators wore out at an alarming rate and had to be replaced with larger and more robust versions.

2. Answered.

3. In lore and reality mass does not equal volume. The Thorn is a 20 ton light 'Mech and its original 3050 fluff illustrates this. Note the Thorn has an Endo-Steel internal structure which one might think would make it more cramped since Endo-Steel does demand more volume, but internal layout counts big on this one.

TRO:3050 said:

In addition, sensible weapon placement and ease of maintenance have earned the design high marks from technicians. Service crews can actually climb into the 'Mechs arms and legs and work on repairs on the inside.

There are tables from Maximum Tech that reduce space in a 'Mech based on weight class with only Assault being unaltered. Note that they make some canon light designs illegal. There were also no tables provided for quads.

4. 'Mechs are normally counterweighted internally in addition to gyros though game construction rules do not explicitly reflect this. The Blitzkrieg mounts an Ultra AC/20 in its left side as its sole weapon and fluff illustrates the use of counterweights.

TRO:3060 said:

Designers were careful about the placement of the huge cannon on the 'Mech's frame. By placing counterweights and ammo feeds to the right of the weapon, designers ensured proper balance on uneven terrain.

The current rules set now include the Unbalanced design quirk for those new 'Mechs where the designers skipped installing counterweights. The quirk actually forces piloting rolls in situations where they are not normally required. Or it adds penalties/increased to hit numbers to piloting rolls in many normal situations.

If it is a basic design rule, implied in the construction rules, or covered in the game rules there is probably official fluff or story somewhere giving an at least somewhat believable reason.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 01 December 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The Formula for Speed is [(Engine Rating) divided by (Tons)] multiplied by 16.2.

So for example, a 35 ton Jenner with an XL 300 is (300/35)*16.2= 138.86 KPH

And with MWO to get the Speed Tweaked value multiply by 1.1: 138.86*1.1= 152.7 KPH

It would be interesting if speed was dynamic in MWO going underweight on a mech, doubtful we'd see something like that though.

[Escef]

Praetor Shepard, on 01 December 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

The Formula for Speed is [(Engine Rating) divided by (Tons)] multiplied by 16.2.

So for example, a 35 ton Jenner with an XL 300 is (300/35)*16.2= 138.86 KPH

And with MWO to get the Speed Tweaked value multiply by 1.1: 138.86*1.1= 152.7 KPH

It would be interesting if speed was dynamic in MWO going underweight on a mech, doubtful we'd see something like that though.

And for good reason. A Catapult K2 with 4 MLs, 2 MGs w/1 ton of ammo, 11 DHS, endo, 412 points of ferro armor, and a 315XL would haul tail at around 140 kph. That's light mech speed with heavy mech armor. Would you really want to deal with a Jenner with almost double armor?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Escef, on 01 December 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

And for good reason. A Catapult K2 with 4 MLs, 2 MGs w/1 ton of ammo, 11 DHS, endo, 412 points of ferro armor, and a 315XL would haul tail at around 140 kph. That's light mech speed with heavy mech armor. Would you really want to deal with a Jenner with almost double armor?

That should come out to 40 tons and no Jump Jets, more like an over grown Cicada.

But yeah doubtful the devs would allow that.

[stjobe]

It should probably be noted that 'mechs could and often would use their strength to carry, drag, and otherwise manhandle weights way over their own weight limit - like during salvage operations. There's no issue with hanging a couple of tons of salvage in a cargo net after a Catapult, for instance, but that cargo net would be dumped the instant there was any sign of action.

Whether or not you could stuff a couple of tons of ammo extra into a 'mech to make it overweight, that's easy to say no to due to space limitations. There's just no room for anything over the limit. If you wanted to carry that ammo in crates slung from the torso, that would be fine, but of course it wouldn't be available for firing until you'd gone through reload operations.

And for the other end, gaining speed because you've shot off your 12 tons of ammo; no, the 'mech is designed to go a certain speed and won't go faster under any circumstances. Actuators, joints, internal structure, and the myomers themselves aren't designed for it.

[Khanahar]

No idea the basis in lore on the following, but I always thought of the number of slots as actually being related to the skeletal structure of 'mechs. All 'mechs have roughly the same skeletal structure (just as most real life mammals have almost identical skeletal structures), so they have fixed numbers of places you can attach things. Then you fluff Endo either as having fewer attachment points, or having extra bulk that must be so affixed.

Do the TW rules on reducing crit space also reduce the requirements for ES/FF? It seems like it would make sense... they ought to take up volume depending on the 'mech itself. I can even see the argument for DHS taking fewer slots on a 'mech with more surface area to volume (smaller, generally). Really, a lot of stuff, including much of the bulkiest stuff, ought to be scaled to the 'mech. AC/20 taking up the same space on a Raven arm as a HGN is probably wrong though.

[Durant Carlyle]

No, only the total number of critical slots is affected. When using those rules, the weapons/ammo/equipment takes up the normal amount of critical slots. There is simply less room to house them on lights, mediums, and heavies. Assaults are unaffected.

As someone else stated, those rules make some canon 'Mechs illegal. I know some of my Locusts are right at the default critical slot limit, so I wouldn't like those rules.

[Scalien]

stjobe, on 02 December 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

It should probably be noted that 'mechs could and often would use their strength to carry, drag, and otherwise manhandle weights way over their own weight limit - like during salvage operations. There's no issue with hanging a couple of tons of salvage in a cargo net after a Catapult, for instance, but that cargo net would be dumped the instant there was any sign of action.

Whether or not you could stuff a couple of tons of ammo extra into a 'mech to make it overweight, that's easy to say no to due to space limitations. There's just no room for anything over the limit. If you wanted to carry that ammo in crates slung from the torso, that would be fine, but of course it wouldn't be available for firing until you'd gone through reload operations.

And for the other end, gaining speed because you've shot off your 12 tons of ammo; no, the 'mech is designed to go a certain speed and won't go faster under any circumstances. Actuators, joints, internal structure, and the myomers themselves aren't designed for it.

There is actually a scenario in one of the module books (not sure if its Grey Death Legion, Snords Irregulars or of of the other early books) where you have to carry salvaged gear and each mech could carry a certain amount based on tonnage. Any shot at the mech could destroy the carried items. Bad idea for extra ammo to be carried.

The lore reason for a mech not going faster as it gets lighter (ammo spent, armor or arms being blown off) is the legs are calibrated to move at a certain speed based on the tonnage. Sadly legged chassies are not as simple as wheeled chassies and cannot be expected to go faster just cause the vehicle is a little lighter. At least not with the tech level of the inner sphere.

If you think about it. Take an olympic sprinter and time his speed, now cut ten pound of unneccessary meat off him, ignoring the whole dying/pain aspect- he would not really be able to run faster. There is a point where muscle build up/body weight and speed peak. That peak is where mechs are designed to operate.


Also, the internal structure chart is standardized for ease of gameplay. There are optional rules out there somewhere where an 80 tonner does have twice the internal space of a 20 tonner. I played with them and it was silly cause a number of existing light mechs didn;t fit their chassie and you could make an atlas with 2 ac/20s in one arm.

Silly rules are sometimes necessary for better game play.


Here is a good question: According to the faqs of the FASA team in the 80s, why does the machine gun have a range of 90 meters?

[FireSlade]

In lore during the Jade Phoenix Trilogy Aidan piloted his Summoner on a moon for his last battle in the Trial of Bloodright. Durring that story he was warned that because of the lack of atmosphere and less gravity that he would be able to push his mech's speeds much faster than it was ever designed to. This worked somewhat during the battle but it also almost cost him the battle when the Summoner's leg broke at the knee from the added stresses and he fell into a crater. What saved him was that he still had 1 round left in the chamber for the LB-10-X AC and when he fired it in defiance of his foe that a shot (pellet) hit his enemy's cockpit and broke the view screen killing him in his mech.

So in lore there are some instances where mechs could be piloted outside of their abilities but usually ended up breaking very quickly afterwards. This and since it really is the computer piloting the mech with the pilot’s inputs, makes it believable as to why there are speed limits.

Another thing that makes sense is that the weight limit for mechs is based upon battle conditions. The mechs and all of their parts are designed to handle a certain way during battle conditions, which are much harder on the machine but out of combat they could be repurposed to accomplish other tasks with little to no damage; like a 65 ton machine carrying 5 to 10 tons on it. The trick to accomplish this is the mech is working at a walking speed or slower (less stress on joints), and is not taking enemy fire. You can try it sometime by putting 100lb (45kg) on your back and noticing the difference on you when you walk and run with that load.