229 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 09 December 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

I actually can't find where he did say it, but I remember he was arguing about Centurions with arms and saying something like "All Cents who use arms are useless besides AL and even in Pug matches I insta-destroy all their arms in the two seconds they bring them out". Something related to that idea.

Pretty much correct. The only Centurion that should ever mount arm weapons is the 9AL, since it can mount a couple SPL or ML in there. However, the 9AL is probably the most lackluster Centurion in the mix anyway, largely because of this.

Arm mounted guns on a Centurion are asking to be neutered in seconds, period. Torso mounted weapons are a must-have on the Centurion and if you're spending tonnage armoring and weaponizing those limbs, it's going to hurt your agility and overall performance so much that you will be inferior to a proper Centurion build in every way.

luxebo, on 09 December 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

To that last quote, I think he said the same to Koniving before, which is something I don't agree with. Everyone has the option to build their own mechs. Unless you're recommending beginners to go build a 40 kph light with no armor then you should have the right to speak about the builds you're recommending. This guide is only really for those who are barely starting out or on the fence of getting something new afterward (hero or chassis to master). This guide also shows a little about 12v12 premade games, but I think Victor should focus on the usability, price issue, and powerfulness of each mech and rate by that rather than how it does with competitive supportive teams.

The thing that people seem to keep missing is a good 'mech is a good 'mech is a good 'mech in this game.

With a handful of exceptions, there's not a lot of 'mechs that are "very good, in the right hands and when used in the right situation." For example, the Blackjack - it's a very good AC/20 'mech in light tonnage league drops if the pilot is good at evasive jump jetting - is a 'mech I would say that is not recommended to newbies, but can be very good.

However moving onto things like "Golden Boy is bad" and "Shadow Hawk is good" - these are going to be the same for people in ALL skill brackets. I tell newbies to pick up a Shadow Hawk because it's a great 'mech now, and later, no matter what they're doing with it. Why would I ever steer them towards a Hunchback which is an inferior 'mech... now, and later?

That's what this list is about.

If someone wanted the "full top tier 'mech experience" I would recommend they buy:

Jenner
Shadow Hawk
Cataphract
Victor
Highlander

Then they can branch out from there. Delete weight classes you aren't interested in (i.e. remove Jenners if you don't like lights, Highlanders if you don't like assaults).

On top of that I recommend:
Recon pilots: Cicada, Raven, Spider
Recon Extras: Trebuchet 3C, Centurion 9D
Sniper pilots: Jagermech, Blackjack
Brawler Pilots: Jagermech, Catapult K2, Blackjack, Centurion
LRM Pilots: Shadow Hawk, Centurion
ECM Special: Atlas DDC

But I'm recommending those core 'mechs first, hands down, before even looking at those other niche 'mechs. And yes, I'm steering people outright away from Dragons & Kintaros.

They have every right to ignore my advice, but I think a reasonable review of the 'mechs should be available and accurate for newbies. I don't buy into the "Newbies should get something terrible first to 'build character'" philosophy.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 December 2013 - 08:49 PM.

[luxebo]

I guess you're judging all the way disregarding pricing and focusing on general usability and advantageous aspects of the mechs. I'm a lot more cheap because I don't want to spend on MC and stick to pure grinding of C-bills; in fact sometimes I play with trials for extra xp and cash. My last question is what bad hitboxes does the Thunderbolt and Orion have? I knew that Orion had some sorta giant Center, but didn't the hitbox change edit that? I thought the Thunderbolt was the extremely tanky heavy as well, always see it as damaged as a Centurion.

[Victor Morson]

My thinking is a wide number of 'mechs already have pretty solid price tags on this list that are top tier. For example the Shadow Hawk 2D2 is only about 4 million cbills; that's not much more than a Hunchback at all. It's worth the extra couple drops to afford it, if you plan on staying with the chassis for 3 whole 'mechs.

The Thunderbolt is generally suffering from Awesome syndrome: A too wide body. Easy to hit.

The Orion's problem is both the large shoulder, and more importantly, the low mounted arms that make shots unable to clear terrain at long range. With the lack of jump jets, that low-arm gun point is a real crippling factor to it, unfortunately.

The Orion makes a perfectly decent brawler and it's not awful, but it's definitely not on par with the Cataphract. Likewise the Thunderbolt makes a fairly decent heavy that's not terrible either, but ultimately just not on the same level as the Phract & Hawk. Neither one of these 'mechs is anywhere near "Dragon bad." They're just not as good as they could be.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 December 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[luxebo]

Ah, I see what you mean about Thunderbolt and Orion. For the pricing of mechs, cheapest few mechs would probably be: Locust (around 3 mil for everything, so 9 mil for master!), Commando (around 5 mil, so 15 mil for master), Hunchback (around 5 mil, so 15 mil for master.) That's all I really see but some others can be cheaper than others due to lack of XL engine, lack of expensive variants, etc. BTW, how would the Wolverine and Griffin be rated? Their sizes look similar to the Shadow Hawk, and I think the Wolverine has a bit large legs, with the Griffin being large for what it can do. We'll wait for next week's patch then I guess.

[luxebo]

Hey Victor, I'm bringing this topic back up, because I need to ask how the competitive players think of the Griffin and Wolverine. As far as I know, one Griffin is one-sided (YLW problem), one Griffin is an energy boat, one Griffin is a missile boat (with additional energy hardpoint in left torso), one Wolverine is energy boat fake light with no JJs, one Wolverine is reliant on ballistics and missiles, and one Wolverine is an asymmetric 4SP with slightly less firepower. How would these be looked at?

Also, how would the clan mechs be looked at, assuming as of right now, these hardpoints: http://imgur.com/h1C6WaQ
Would the basis of each chassis be ok at all in competitive assuming they stick with what Paul said? Would the lights/mediums be toast due to slower speed, or would heavies/assaults be toast due to low standard armor? What would happen to the mechs due to omnitech? Not asking for an answer, just maybe a speculation of the mechs themselves and how badly/good they will go.

Edited by luxebo, 17 December 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Great work Victor! This post makes life easier for new players, since they wont have to grind away in a bad chassis early on. For more advanced players, you can nitpick away all you like - but keep in mind that you are not a fresh player attempting to figure out how to steer with your 'mechs legs while aiming with your torso. The Atlas, for instance, might be a tough 'mech in veteran hands, but lack of mobility, low slung arms and the need to master diverse weapon groups makes it a beginner nightmare.

My nitpicks:
Awesome 8R is not a one star mech, more like a 3 star due to torso missile tubes.
Yen-Lo is competitive (but not for new players).
Shadow hawks are not in a league of their own. Too big and the ballistics torso is an easy target. Still a great medium.

[luxebo]

Awesomes are too large, though the 8R is pretty much the only viable competitive Awesome imho as it can launch many missiles in one flight, it still is too large and therefore isn't top tier. Maybe 1.5-3 stars, somewhere there.

YLW Victor kept arguing about the arm that can be shot off. While he has a valid point, I don't think it should limit you from playing it. New players however, yeah they'd probably lose the arm quickly so I wouldn't fully recommend to them. But to a veteran that loves Cents, I think it's acceptable. While should be higher rating, it's not fully competitive.

Shadow Hawk I agree.

[Itsalrightwithme]

luxebo, on 18 December 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Awesomes are too large, though the 8R is pretty much the only viable competitive Awesome imho as it can launch many missiles in one flight, it still is too large and therefore isn't top tier. Maybe 1.5-3 stars, somewhere there.

YLW Victor kept arguing about the arm that can be shot off. While he has a valid point, I don't think it should limit you from playing it. New players however, yeah they'd probably lose the arm quickly so I wouldn't fully recommend to them. But to a veteran that loves Cents, I think it's acceptable. While should be higher rating, it's not fully competitive.

Shadow Hawk I agree.

If one were to really boat LRMs, in the period prior to Ghost Heat the 8R used to be king, as you could boat 4xALRM15. With Ghost Heat the 2xALRM5+2xALRM20 is preferable, but then the LRM20s launch in 2 bursts. Thus, the tube cap advantage is diminished. That's why many moved to the Stalker H or M LRM boat, plus you can carry a nontrivial amount of lasers.

But these days the BLR is a more popular LRM boat. Other variants of the BLR aren't as painful to level up. Those running AWS missile boats are AWS veterans from back when PPCs were good and the Q and T variants were viable.

Re: the YLW, it's all a matter of hitboxes. The Cent arms are really huge. They are much easier to take off than HBKs. This is what is really against the YLW -- the arms hitboxes, not just the fact that the AC20 is on the RA. To compare, very few people complain against the Victor B which often mounts an AC20 on the RA as its key weapon, because it is easier to protect that arm. The YLW RA can be hit from almost any angle.

[Itsalrightwithme]

I'm not Victor, but he's on vacation so I'll offer my speculation below.

luxebo, on 17 December 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Hey Victor, I'm bringing this topic back up, because I need to ask how the competitive players think of the Griffin and Wolverine. As far as I know, one Griffin is one-sided (YLW problem), one Griffin is an energy boat, one Griffin is a missile boat (with additional energy hardpoint in left torso), one Wolverine is energy boat fake light with no JJs, one Wolverine is reliant on ballistics and missiles, and one Wolverine is an asymmetric 4SP with slightly less firepower. How would these be looked at?

Maybe a better question is, what makes mediums appealing for comp drops? The best favored ones are chosen because they can either (1) kill lights off quickly, (2) kill much larger mechs, (3) can emulate loadouts of good larger mechs.

To kill lights quickly, the favored method is to bring AC20. Streaks damage lights, but take too much time to kill them off outright unless they are already damaged.

To kill much larger mechs, it will have been great if SRMs were buffed a bit. But SRMs aren't great today, so we are left with whether medium mechs can emulate larger mechs. For example, the SHD 2D2 is favored because you can build a very good PPC+AC20, or other chassis with PPC+2xAC5, since pinpoint damage is still king.

Anyway, going back to the Wolverine and Griffin, how do you think they fit into the three roles above?

luxebo, on 17 December 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Also, how would the clan mechs be looked at, assuming as of right now, these hardpoints: http://imgur.com/h1C6WaQ
Would the basis of each chassis be ok at all in competitive assuming they stick with what Paul said? Would the lights/mediums be toast due to slower speed, or would heavies/assaults be toast due to low standard armor? What would happen to the mechs due to omnitech? Not asking for an answer, just maybe a speculation of the mechs themselves and how badly/good they will go.

I think most players think that unless you can optimize mechs, they aren't likely to be very good for serious comp drops. Clan mechs are probably good for pug/4-man drops. There is serious concern on Lights due to low speed, and some heavies that carry FF by default, or overly large XL engines. So this has to be analyzed individually, for that I defer to others who have looked through the exact variants.

Edited by Itsalrightwithme, 19 December 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[VagGR]

good post. but for any new guys reading this do not take it as the word of God. good guidelines yes, but try out things for yousellves and then you can decide.

[luxebo]

Itsalrightwithme, on 19 December 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Stuff on Awesomes and YLW (to simplify post)

Yeah, I think so as well. Awesome is just underclassed by Stalker and Battlemaster, and YLW has the arm problem (or any Cent in this case).

Itsalrightwithme, on 19 December 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Anyway, going back to the Wolverine and Griffin, how do you think they fit into the three roles above?

I think most players think that unless you can optimize mechs, they aren't likely to be very good for serious comp drops. Clan mechs are probably good for pug/4-man drops. There is serious concern on Lights due to low speed, and some heavies that carry FF by default, or overly large XL engines. So this has to be analyzed individually, for that I defer to others who have looked through the exact variants.

Because of SRMs, I personally think that Griffin and Wolverine are somewhat lower, especially with the Shadow Hawk in the game. They all probably require XL due to the one-sided (lose one side and you lose all or almost all of your weapons.) I personally think some of them may have some use, but they're 3-4 stars at best in my opinion.

Clan mechs, yeah. Not sure how they will fare due to the limitations of customization. Personally, they might even be underarmed, unless Clan mechs can only put Clan tech and not IS mechs with Clan tech. So depends as of right now. The hardpoints and stuff on the chart look more or less fine, but I dunno, their probably gonna suffer in one way or another, especially with Paul's so-called 'balance'. Thanks for the answers Itsalrightwithme .

VagGR, on 19 December 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

good post. but for any new guys reading this do not take it as the word of God. good guidelines yes, but try out things for yousellves and then you can decide.

Yeah, I believe this too. While this thread says whats good and what not, don't let it stop any new players to go choose something they want to choose to pilot. If they want an Awesome, Dragon, Kintaro, or Locust, go ahead. (Speaking of the Kintaro, how would the new hitboxes affect mechs in Jan 21st?)

[Itsalrightwithme]

This is a bit off topic in the New Players Help section, but most competitive matches are designed around tonnage. So one has to always ask, "Why bring this mech when I can bring a lighter mech that does nearly the same role?"

The SHD rose just as VTR started to become a very viable and attractive option in place of HGN. In many cases, mine included, I slightly prefer the VTR. So on the medium mech side, a lot of teams replaced their CNT with SHD at the cost of 5 tons, which they gain back by replacing one HGN with a VTR to gain 10 tons.

Another thing that needs to be said esp regarding Victor Morson's list and MavRCK's list: We are currently in a state where tonnage and mech class don't play a role in MM. If and when things change, then the question above, "Why not this lighter mech for the same role / similar firepower," will be important even to new players.

Nowadays I see a lot of "wasteful" builds where a Heavy or Assault run pretty much the same loadouts as a Medium. They aren't faster since speed becomes more expensive as a mech is heavier, but they do carry more armor and more DHS. At this time they aren't exactly a hindrance to their own team, but when MM starts to take tonnage into account we shall see how things go.

Individually, players will have incentive to be efficient with tonnage. And as lighter mechs can gain speed more easily, heavier mechs will then be forced to be more focused and carry more firepower. There was a nice post on The Mittani about how to design a Cicada, starting with criticizing Cicada builds that try to emulate Jenner speed. They have nice analytic approaches if you are the type to make an engine vs. speed vs. tonnage chart.

In terms of designing premade lances, I suspect that LRM-centric teams (1 DDC, 2 BLR, 1 Spider) will also be penalized to some extent, but this just speculation since it highly depends on group behavior.

[Mao of DC]

Great list the only trouble I have with it is it is VERY subjective. The ratings are based on how the OP likes to play.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Mao of DC, on 19 December 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Great list the only trouble I have with it is it is VERY subjective.

Be almost impossible to make one that isn't.

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 17 December 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Hey Victor, I'm bringing this topic back up, because I need to ask how the competitive players think of the Griffin and Wolverine. As far as I know, one Griffin is one-sided (YLW problem), one Griffin is an energy boat, one Griffin is a missile boat (with additional energy hardpoint in left torso), one Wolverine is energy boat fake light with no JJs, one Wolverine is reliant on ballistics and missiles, and one Wolverine is an asymmetric 4SP with slightly less firepower. How would these be looked at?

Sorry for the slow response; combination of factors including being on a Christmas trip.

So far, while still a bit too early to judge, the Wolverine is a write-off. It's inferior to the Shadow Hawk in the same role, with little to recommend it.

The Griffin is not currently good; however, it's the opinion of most folks I've talked to that if they ever were to fix SRMs (terrible hit detection right now) to be on par with the other weapons, it would likely stand to replace the Centurion as an SRM boat. It's really better than a Cent for that role, surprisingly, and should make a great pugging 'mech if you own one when config'ed that way. Possibily competitive if they opt to finally make some balance fixes.

luxebo, on 17 December 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Also, how would the clan mechs be looked at, assuming as of right now, these hardpoints: http://imgur.com/h1C6WaQ
Would the basis of each chassis be ok at all in competitive assuming they stick with what Paul said? Would the lights/mediums be toast due to slower speed, or would heavies/assaults be toast due to low standard armor? What would happen to the mechs due to omnitech? Not asking for an answer, just maybe a speculation of the mechs themselves and how badly/good they will go.

Even if you can't adjust the armor or speed, it really depends how bad they damage Clan weapons. It is my - and many competitive player's opinion - what they are doing to the Clans simply won't work at nerfing them. While there are going to be a few duds, the bottom line is even after the "nerfs" the weapons are so far and away superior, it won't matter.

The cited example of the LRMs for example - I'm sure you'll be able to piece together a Clan 'mech with 2 LRM/20s as backup weapons, because both combined before the nerf are LIGHTER than an AC/20, and after the nerf, only a couple tons heavier. Their nerfs are both too severe in some areas, and not severe enough in others, so I would speculate that the Clan mechs will be - unless they change their plan - outright replacements for IS tech through virtue of crit slots alone.

Mao of DC, on 19 December 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Great list the only trouble I have with it is it is VERY subjective. The ratings are based on how the OP likes to play.

It's really not based on how I like to play, but how you have to play to compete at the higher levels of the game. This isn't a personal taste list, outside of my love for LRM Skirmishers that are on the fringe.

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 December 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Jonathan Paine, on 18 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Awesome 8R is not a one star mech, more like a 3 star due to torso missile tubes.

Unfortunately it really is 1 star, even if it's better for an Awesome; the Battlemaster and Victor have outright replaced it, in particular for the Battlemaster's missiles. In an SRM fight it's too slow and will lose to a Cent or Griffin, and in an LRM fight it's horribly outclassed by a faster 'mech like a Shadow Hawk or Battlemaster.

In fact, in a scrim drop the other night, a team took one of these out as missile support (it wasn't serious) and I took my Shadow Hawk setup and every time we got into a direct fight, about 95% of my shots went straight into the Awesome's CT, while about 95% of his shots went into the dirt (the remaining 5% into my worthless arm). It's just too slow and too big.

Jonathan Paine, on 18 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Yen-Lo is competitive (but not for new players).

Not many non-new players use the Yen-Lo. it's insultingly easy to disarm (literally); it will get primed first because it can do damage, but it will lose it's main firepower several times faster than an AC/20 carrying Shadow Hawk that forces you to saw off an entire side torso.

Jonathan Paine, on 18 December 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Shadow hawks are not in a league of their own. Too big and the ballistics torso is an easy target. Still a great medium.

They really are; the ballistic gun is high mounted enough to insure cockpit-level shots, low mounted enough to not "hunch"; it can deliver frightening on-target damage with great hardpoints, and more importantly, hardpoint layouts.

Plus few 'mechs can fill a role from brawling with heavies to hunting down lights, and the Shadow Hawk can do either equally well.

[luxebo]

Victor Morson, on 19 December 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Sorry for the slow response; combination of factors including being on a Christmas trip.

So far, while still a bit too early to judge, the Wolverine is a write-off. It's inferior to the Shadow Hawk in the same role, with little to recommend it.

The Griffin is not currently good; however, it's the opinion of most folks I've talked to that if they ever were to fix SRMs (terrible hit detection right now) to be on par with the other weapons, it would likely stand to replace the Centurion as an SRM boat. It's really better than a Cent for that role, surprisingly, and should make a great pugging 'mech if you own one when config'ed that way. Possibily competitive if they opt to finally make some balance fixes.

Even if you can't adjust the armor or speed, it really depends how bad they damage Clan weapons. It is my - and many competitive player's opinion - what they are doing to the Clans simply won't work at nerfing them. While there are going to be a few duds, the bottom line is even after the "nerfs" the weapons are so far and away superior, it won't matter.

The cited example of the LRMs for example - I'm sure you'll be able to piece together a Clan 'mech with 2 LRM/20s as backup weapons, because both combined before the nerf are LIGHTER than an AC/20, and after the nerf, only a couple tons heavier. Their nerfs are both too severe in some areas, and not severe enough in others, so I would speculate that the Clan mechs will be - unless they change their plan - outright replacements for IS tech through virtue of crit slots alone.

No problem, I don't really have much to do over Winter Break, so I just work (few less hours) and do daily stuff, like play this game. I only asked a day or two earlier.

I think both Wolverine and Griffin are not very threatening and I usually can destroy them quick. The problem is the former has overly large legs and the latter has tiny legs, making both easy to leg. I was thinking that Wolverine would be ranked higher due to the one that's extremely fast, one with a similar HBK-4SP layout, and the one that has ballistics, but I guess I'm wrong. Griffin I also thought would be lower, didn't think it would go so far as to become potentially better than Centurions. The problem is that technically only one could be viable as a better Centurion, as one is completely one-sided, another doesn't have enough missiles, and the last has 4 slots, so four SRM6s potentially.

Well, the one thing about Clan tech is whether or not IS mechs can use Clan tech, if not Clan mechs may overcome some of the mechs, but if it's possible, IS mechs might even be better than Clans potentially. The problem is that lights are too slow (97 kph is a bad thing, I've tried stock 3L), and all the base Clan mechs are overly weak in armor. Maybe the omnitech hardpoints speculated plus changeable torsos and arms can save them, but as of now it's too early to tell.

Thanks for the response Victor.

[Victor Morson]

Yeah it's still early to make an accurate call on either 'mech. The Griffin I think could be solid, but without working SRMs, it's really a hypothetical. The Wolverine using arm mounted ballistics is pretty meh too, and definitely hurts it compared to the Shadow Hawk.

If IS mechs are allowed to use Clan tech, they still have to content with Clan Ferro, Clan Endo, Clan XL.... it's pretty bad. Still I hope that doesn't happen on one hand, because every single 'mech will be loaded with three times the firepower it has now even with those factors.

Jesus, I could change my 15/10/5 Shadow Hawk to 3x 20 (the ports would suck, but still) and it'd weigh far less than just the 15 & 10. Yikes.

[Navy Sixes]

Great thread, I whole-heartedly approve of these ratings. I disagree with most of it (spot-on about the shawk, though) but I've been getting fat on all the 'landers, 'phracts, and jaggerbombs I've been dining on in the PUG. You keep telling the new-players they should dry-hump the meta relentlessly; I'll keep raising my KDR.

[luxebo]

Oh well, for Clan tech we'll just have to wait and see what kind of changes they will make to the game. I wouldn't want an all Clan mech match every single tournament that's competitive and every single IS mech would be useless. That wouldn't be fun, much different from MWLL (though what isn't different about that game from this game?). We'll just have to see about what will PGI do.

On the Griffin and Wolverine, I learned that they have quite the torso twist range, but I don't think that'll save them.