8 replies to this topic

[Airborne Thunder]

OK, I read on Sarna that there are "Primitive" versions of some mechs. Most notably are the Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt and Commando. These were made around 2500ish and were some of the first mech designs. My question to you Battletech experts is are the mechs that come in the Phoenix Package new production models made with long lost blueprints or are they old "lost N found" mechs that they cleaned up and refurbished? Any chance any of the Shadow Hawk or Thunderbolt mechs are made with Primitive Technology? Could our mechs be made from refit TDR-1C's or SHD-1R's (the first versions of these mechs) or did they stop using these mechs long ago? I also read that that the Shadow Hawk and Thunderbolt mechs have been made by a lot of companies and that there are tons of these mechs. Could they be just current production models having nothing to do with the TDR-1C or SHD-1R variants? Please state sources. Thanks.

Edited by Airborne Thunder, 05 December 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Mechteric]

The Battletech universe is a slightly strange one, but interesting. Lets just say there was a long period of time between 2800 and 3050 where new technology (such as ER weapons and Gauss) were essentially lost so those old models were just as good as any other since they couldn't make the new stuff during that time due to the ravages of lengthy civil war.

This is what started that dark age:
http://www.sarna.net...peration_Exodus

[Elyam]

Most mechs used in the 3050 period of MWO were manufactured 200 to 400 years ago - from the time of the Star League through the period of the first two Succession Wars, the latter period seeing a quick dwindling of production ability as the wars destroyed the means. Not to mention the lack of knowledgeable scientists and technologists due to both the Exodus and the wars. And only after the rediscovery of tech via an intact memory core and somewhat due to aggressive scientific pursuit in some quarters (notably Davion's) and even due to a few releases of tech by ComStar - did any real production of mechs ramp up again after the 4th Succession War and through the 3030s and 3040s to the present. But the vast bulk of chassis we pilot were built in the Star League and immediate-post-Star League (post-Exodus) eras.

Very, very few mechs survive from the 'primative' era of the early 2500s. You could say that a tiny quantity among our used MWO mechs could be of that time, but most are from the main production period described above.

I'm not going to provide references - this comes from my involvement with BT as long as it has existed. Read Sarna - it's all there.

Edited by Elyam, 05 December 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[Airborne Thunder]

Thanks guys. The idea of piloting an old "primitive" refurbished mech kind of bothers me. I'd rather these be the newer mass produced late model variants that were made recently. I read that the TDR-1C suffered from "poor workmanship" and that didn't set well with me (I know, that sounds weird).

[Spokes]

Airborne Thunder, on 04 December 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

OK, I read on Sarna that there are "Primitive" versions of some mechs. Most notably are the Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt and Commando. These were made around 2500ish and were some of the first mech designs. My question to you Battletech experts is are the mechs that come in the Phoenix Package new production models made with long lost blueprints or are they old "lost N found" mechs that they cleaned up and refurbished? Any chance any of the Shadow Hawk or Thunderbolt mechs are made with Primitive Technology? Could our mechs be made from refit TDR-1C's or SHD-1R's (the first versions of these mechs) or did they stop using these mechs long ago? I also read that that the Shadow Hawk and Thunderbolt mechs have been made by a lot of companies and that there are tons of these mechs. Could they be just current production models having nothing to do with the TDR-1C or SHD-1R variants? Please state sources. Thanks.

TL:DR-- The Project Phoenix 'Mechs are no different, lore wise, from any other 'Mech in the game.

"Primitive" 'Mechs are extinct by 3050. You might find a few in a museum or something, but by 3050 you're not going to see them on the battlefield. The "Project Phoenix" 'Mechs are either new production or redesigned versions of the original models that survived the Succession Wars. They are not "primitive" 'Mechs.

The whole "Project Phoenix" moniker comes from the artwork-- some of the BattleMechs in the original technical readout (like the Shadow Hawk and Thunderbolt) used artwork licensed from other sources. Eventual legal issues led FASA to release new artwork for those designs, with the "Project Phoenix" as an excuse for why they looked different. With the return of the original style artwork, the Project Phoenix name really doesn't have any meaning anymore.

[Airborne Thunder]

Spokes, on 05 December 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

"Primitive" 'Mechs are extinct by 3050. You might find a few in a museum or something, but by 3050 you're not going to see them on the battlefield. The "Project Phoenix" 'Mechs are either new production or redesigned versions of the original models that survived the Succession Wars. They are not "primitive" 'Mechs.

Now I feel better

[Skylarr]

Quote

Category:Primitive Technology

Primitive Technology is the name given to engineering systems developed before the Star League, usually during the Age of War. As a general rule, Primitive Technology systems are bulkier and less effective than their Succession Wars era counterparts. Production of Primitive Technology was halted as better technology was developed over time. During the Word of Blake Jihad however, primitive systems were reintroduced to the modern battlefield. Though less effective than the existing systems, the primitive versions required fewer resources and could be built in a variety of less capable production facilities. This allowed commanders to deploy more units on the field. Designs that used primitive systems were commonly referred to as "RetroTech" designs.


P

• Primitive Aerospace Fighters
  
• Primitive BattleMechs
  
• Primitive Combat Vehicles
  
• Primitive Conventional Fighters
  
• Primitive DropShip classes

P

• Primitive Armor
  
• Primitive Cockpit
  
• Primitive Engine
  
• Osaka Heavy Metrics

S

• Sarissa

Edited by Skylarr, 05 December 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[Airborne Thunder]

I guess I could have just thought of it with this logic:

A TDR-5S(P) and a regular TDR-5S are exactly the same in every way (except the C-Bill bonus, the "P" and the paint job). They are no better or worse than each other. Thus, the Phoenix mechs and the regular versions are made with the exact same materials and manufacturing specifications. Therefore they could not be "primitive" versions of earlier mechs.

Edited by Airborne Thunder, 05 December 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Mechteric]

Airborne Thunder, on 05 December 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Thus, the Phoenix mechs and the regular versions are made with the exact same materials and manufacturing specifications. Therefore they could not be "primitive" versions of earlier mechs.

Exactly, their usage of the term Phoenix just means they were able to bring back some classic mechs that got caught up in legal issues from their design's origins. Nothing to do with the universe/lore (well they did write it into the lore, but its janky and we all know why they had to do it).

This:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

Led to this:
http://www.sarna.net...Project_Phoenix

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 13 December 2013 - 07:01 AM.