13 replies to this topic

[Buckminster]

So, I'm starting to reach a point where I'm ready to let the Locusts sit a little, and move on to my next Phoenix mech. I've been playing with the Battlemaster a little, but decided that I'd really like to stay in something smaller and faster. Therefore - Shadow Hawk.

So I opened it up in Smurfy and started looking at what to do with it. My first thought was "who the heck thought this was a good weapon layout?" - LRM5, SRM2, AC5, and a ML? Really? 4 distinctly different weapons that serve 4 distinctly different purposes... wha?

But I got to thinking about it, and decided to try a little experiment. My controls can handle 4 weapon groups, so why not try it stock? I'll make the usual upgrades - ES, DHS, AMS and max armor; and let's see if we can make this thing work.

Anyone else use a stock hawk? Or is this just an experiment in mediocrity?

My plan is to give it through the basic efficiencies in this semi-stock format, and see how it goes.

[oldradagast]

Keep in mind stock configurations were derived from Table Top, where 2 key differences come into play:

1) Small LRM launchers are useful since most enemy mechs lack AMS and, if I recall, AMS was a lot less powerful in table top.

2) You don't actually have to worry about controlling different weapon groups in battle, so having 4 different weapons groups that nobody would ever use together is perfectly viable in tabletop.

Anyway, the Shadowhawks are all good mechs - have fun!

[Buckminster]

I was looking at something like this to start: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0e606546cc2aec7

Certainly, I could do more to make more changes, but I'm trying to keep it close to the original form. I had to put the Streak in though, I figure that it'll be easier to aim and use than the SRM2, especially since it'll share lock with the LRM.

Edit:

I actually may forego the DHS for now, I don't think I have the 1.5 million sitting around.

Edited by Buckminster, 05 December 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[ShadowbaneX]

I love me my Shadow Hawks as is evidenced by my Storm badge over on the right. As such I had to play the -2H totally stock for at least a few matches. The SRM2 is mostly useless and wastes nearly half a ton because it has more ammo then you'll really use in a fight*. Conversely, there's not enough ammo for the AC/5. The LRM5 as suggested above isn't really all that useful with all number of AMS systems that show up. The Medium Laser is fine, but considering that you've got Jenners, Spiders and whatever else running around with 3 to 6 MLs, well, it's a little light.

It wasn't bad, but it was a bit of a struggle to do more than 150 damage. Granted, you're going with the usual refinements (Endo-Steel DHS, etc) so you'll have room for at least a 2nd ton of AC/5 ammo and a couple extra tons of armour so that will help immensely. My advice would be to go with upgrades, but don't put the extra Heat Sinks back in. Instead stay with the 10 doubles and use the extra 2 tons you've got to add a 2nd ton of AC/5 ammo and upgrade the SRM2 to a SRM4. That keeps it mostly stock but deals with the most glaring problems of the mech.

For later upgrades, Shadow Hawks do very well with XL engines, which gives you an extra 8 tons to play with. I remove the LRM5, the ML and a ton of armour to mount an ER LL. Drop the AC/5 for an AC/10 and add an extra ton of ammo. Add in a 2nd SRM4 with an extra ton of ammo. Here's my build as it stands now. I'm trying to decide if sticking with the paired SRM4s is better than an SRM6 with Artemis.

*In TT where my first ride was a Shadow Hawk. After most engagements were over I found that I was out of AC ammo, nearly out of LRM ammo, but I still had half a ton of SRM ammo left. I removed the SRM2 and it's ammo for extra JJs and a 2nd Medium Laser.

[Elyam]

The reason the stock Shadow Hawk works in TT is also due to it's conception as operating within a lance as a mech for all situations. Picture 4 of these mechs working together: they can fire distant with the power of an LRM-20 and 4 AC/5s; close with the power of 4 MLAS and the crit-finding capabilities of 8 SRMs. And yes, that synergy works in actual play better than many other medium lance configurations.

In MWO, it isn't as bad as it may seem. Heat, for example, remains low, so firing can be constant. Keep in mind even an LRM 5 can make people react to take cover. An AC/5 is always useful, as is a MLAS within its range. Even the lowly SRM2 can be the hit that nails a component and gets you some extra cred or sneaks in to give the engine its last hit and kills it. Take it as a challenge...learning to survive and prosper using just a variety of light weapons and good maneuvering/aiming/timing can certainly make you a better pilot.

Edited by Elyam, 05 December 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Buckminster]

So a half dozen matches later, and my results are decidedly meh. 50% win/loss, no kills, 6 deaths. I'm averaging about 100 damage a match, but I've been decent with getting assists. Some stuff I've noticed:

• This is not a Locust. I've been getting outmaneuvered a lot. I really look forward to unlocking more of the efficiencies.
  
• Jump Jets. I have them, but always seem to forget to use them.
  
• With SHS, heat management isn't terrible, until an enemy mech gets in that sweet spot of 180-270m, and every weapon is effective. Then it's overheat city.
  
• 4 distinct weapon styles is awkward. I'd recommend a new player ditch the LRM5 and SRM2, and use the weight to pick a larger version of either (or add more ACs or lasers). Swapping the SRM2 for a Streak helped, because it uses the same targeting mechanic as the LRM.

So I decided to make some changes - swapped out my 275 for an 300XL I had laying around, and used the weight to upgrade the AC5 to a UAC5, and add more armor and heatsinks. Let's see if this helps.

[Tesunie]

Buckminster, on 05 December 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

I was looking at something like this to start: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0e606546cc2aec7

Certainly, I could do more to make more changes, but I'm trying to keep it close to the original form. I had to put the Streak in though, I figure that it'll be easier to aim and use than the SRM2, especially since it'll share lock with the LRM.

Edit:

I actually may forego the DHS for now, I don't think I have the 1.5 million sitting around.

Actually many of my Shadowhawk configurations don't have DHS yet, and they have been working very well and very cool. Having only missiles and ACs help keep my mechs running cool.

[Buckminster]

Yeah, I've been very pleased with the effectiveness of SHS on my build. Here's what I'm currently running: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...203eb8cd23ddd2c

Things have been working better lately - finally grabbed Hard Turn (the best basic efficiency IMO) and added a 300XL that I had from my Cats, it has made it a lot more nimble.

After 12 matches my W/L is still at 50%, but I've been able to bring my KDR up to 5/10 and my average damage per match is pushing 140.

More thoughts:

• The Shadow Hawk as I have it setup just isn't a kill maker. The blend of weapons makes it very versatile, but it doesn't have a big punch. Although a 5/4 KDR over the last 6 matches is decent.
  
• I love the UAC5. I never did before - I didn't like the idea of jamming - but it's been really good to me. It still jams often enough, but since the weapons loadout is so diverse a jammed UAC isn't a big deal.
  
• I also love the LRM5. It's higher ROF allows for it to just dump missiles. AMS can completely negate it, but for the little amount of weight it takes, it's a worthwhile addition.
  
• The versatility of the weapon layout is proving to be much more useful than I would have expected. No matter what the target, I can have an impact. The UAC is great for distance targets, the LRM is great - especially with it's lock - at peppering targets in the distance, the Streak is great against lights and helps with the big guys too, and the ML gives a nice pinpoint damage dealer. It's a real jack of all trades.

Edited by Buckminster, 08 December 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Buckminster]

So I've been carrying on with my Shadow Hawks all super stock:

-2H: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...203eb8cd23ddd2c

-2D2: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b797544bce860c8

-5M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b2b1bd836e52c9c

Stats still aren't much to write home about, 27 matches total, 17:10 W/L, 8:23 K/D, 143 average damage a match. I wish it kept track of assists though, because I know I've had plenty of games where I've had 8+ assists. I'd love to know that stat. I'm still grinding through the basic efficiencies, with my -2H almost complete. But my thoughts so far:

• Shadow Hawks are generally very heat efficient. The -2D2 is the hottest of the bunch, with those twin Streaks and twin MLs up close.
  
• The -5M is actually my least favorite. I feel that the LRM20 is too big, I'm much happier with the LRM5. It's ammo lasts longer, and I like being able to just lob 5 missiles at someone. The LRM20 is further limited by the 10 missile tubes, which makes it less effective against AMS.
  
• The UAC5 is a must upgrade over the AC5. It does occasionally jam, but that's when you hum a couple missiles and take cover.
  
• The Streaks are another must upgrade.
  
• ES and beefier armor are must upgrades.
  
• The 4 weapon systems was a lot easier to manage than I would have ever expected. The fact that the Streaks and the LRM use the same target lock helps. You really only end up aiming for two weapons - the UAC and the MLs, and the missile lock comes on its own.
  
• Catch someone at that 180-270m magic range, and those weapons make quite an alpha.
  
• It does benefit a lot from an XL engine - I have the 275XL in my -5M, a 280XL in my -2D2 (from my Ravens) and a 300XL in my -2H (from my Catapults)
  
• Jump jets are awesome. Aside from allowing you to reach places you otherwise couldn't, I've certainly been able to make good use of them as back-line fire support. One match on Terra Therma there was a backup going in to the middle, but I could still jump over my teammates and shoot.

I've had such a fun time with the Shadow Hawks, I have a hard time not recommending them to someone. The biggest downside of the stock configurations (except the -5M) is that they don't have max armor, but ES and max armor is a cheap and easy upgrade. The fact that it doesn't need DHS to run effectively is also nice, because that 1.5 million is a lot. The XL isn't a cheap upgrade either, but if you have the 275XL from the -5M, you can always swap it around.

Edited by Buckminster, 13 December 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[Waterhead]

I will do this with my 2H using the stock XL engine from my 5M.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...63dbb3881ef63bb


Perfection, IMHO.

Edited by Waterhead, 13 December 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Buckminster]

I just finished Basic on my -2H, and I've been very happy with it's "super stock" layout. It's not the most effective (partially due to user error), but it's fun and distinct.

I've kinda decided I'm going to do the same for all of my Phoenix (and probably hero) mechs. They may not be the most effective builds, but I'm never going to be playing competitively, and I like the old-school nostalgia of mechs I recognize.

[Drakari]

My big thing when running Shadowhawks stock (I think I did at least one round in each, but I might have only done the 5M) is that they've got abysmal ammo counts. 1 ton of ammo for each weapon, where each weapon requires a different type of ammo? You'd have to have a really special type of battle in order to use all of that effectively, and even then it still ends up being not all that much. Sure a coordinated lance of these could make short work of just about anything, possibly even enough that the ammo wouldn't be a problem, but in any other situation there's just nothing the stock builds can do for very long or very effectively.

[Buckminster]

You're 100% right about the ammo issue. First thing I do is add ES, and use the weight saved to increase armor and ammo. It's actually part of why I prefer the 'stock' -2H over the 'stock' -5M. The -5M was designed as an improved -2H, only when the weight saving measures were added the big thing was that they upped the LRM from a 5 to a 20. That's a lot of weight, and it burns through ammo. And since the -5M already has ES, DHS and an XL engine, there aren't really any ways to trim weight and make room for ammo.

I did end up completely changing my -2D2, deciding that I was only going to keep my Phoenix mechs stock. So my -2D2 ended up with 4 SSRM and gauss, which has been a lot of fun.

[Mighty Spike]

Buckminster, on 05 December 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

So, I'm starting to reach a point where I'm ready to let the Locusts sit a little, and move on to my next Phoenix mech. I've been playing with the Battlemaster a little, but decided that I'd really like to stay in something smaller and faster. Therefore - Shadow Hawk.

So I opened it up in Smurfy and started looking at what to do with it. My first thought was "who the heck thought this was a good weapon layout?" - LRM5, SRM2, AC5, and a ML? Really? 4 distinctly different weapons that serve 4 distinctly different purposes... wha?

But I got to thinking about it, and decided to try a little experiment. My controls can handle 4 weapon groups, so why not try it stock? I'll make the usual upgrades - ES, DHS, AMS and max armor; and let's see if we can make this thing work.

Anyone else use a stock hawk? Or is this just an experiment in mediocrity?

My plan is to give it through the basic efficiencies in this semi-stock format, and see how it goes.

The German community was startin a while ago the solaris community Event. Only Stock loadouts allowed. No ECM,no ER PPCs,no ER lasers and pulse lasers.....only 3025 tech...i can promisse you, this is fun as hell. A totaly different way to play Mechwarrior. You have to watch your heat better. Every single missile or AC round....you have to think twice if you shoot or not... Many Mechs are in ther Stock loadout not bad