15 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

I'm honestly quite surprised to find that after two rounds of hitbox patching now there haven't really been any threads about it. Are any of you finding that your favourite rides are more durable? Less durable?

While I've been pleasantly surprised that Paul seems to have listened to CarrionCrows and split the pelvis between the legs on every mech they've worked on so far, I don't think they've gone quite far enough.

For those who haven't yet, I highly recommend taking a look at Carrioncrows' excellent thread on the matter. While he talks about a number of things, the one I'm most focused on right now is the way that the hitboxes are split up, rather than what happens when a section is destroyed. The tl;dr for those unwilling to click the link is that the pelvis is split between the legs, (we have this, it's good) the side torsi come in on the sides of what the center is now, making it narrower, and the shoulders become arm instead of side torso. The thread even has pictures!

If at this point the thread has left you with a blank stare, asking, "But why do we want this hitbox system?" the answer is fairly straight-forward. Most balance threads can be boiled down to "the time it takes to kill a mech is too short." For the last 10 months, with brief interruptions from LRMs, the best way to kill a mech quickly has been using pinpoint weapons like PPC, ACs, and Gauss. Some people suggest removing weapon convergence entirely, but I remain unconvinced that having my weapons go in places I did not fire them will be fun.

So the answer is to let weapons go where you fire them, but require significant skill for those weapons to all hit the center torso, like they all do now. The reason that direct, pinpoint fire is so good is that most of it hits in the center of the mech, which kills it very quickly. If the center is narrowed, the sides stay relatively the same size, and the arms and legs (which rarely take damage in the current incarnation of MWO) grow in size, only the very best players are now reliably able to hit the CT, and even they are more likely to miss shots hitting centre-mass when their opponent is not directly facing them.

This increases the time-to-kill, and brings direct-fire weapons more in line with weapons like SRMs and lasers which tend to spread damage, as hitting any one non-limb component is less likely, and nobody aims for the arms on purpose, as taking off a side torso is always better. Better still, it does so without removing the ability of the player to put his or her shots where the crosshair indicates they should land. Improving overall durability while making mechs more prone to losing limbs and crits will only improve the game and help bring that TT and classic MW feel into the game.

Which brings me back to the main point about the new round of hitbox balance changes. At first I was cautiously optimistic- the Orion and Awesome had pretty big problems, which is why they were singled out first, and both seemed to fare well after the patch, though I was a bit disappointed. But the latest round of patching has made it clear that while Paul agrees the pelvis should be split mostly into the legs, he disagrees with making the CT smaller and making the shoulders into arms, as evidenced by the changes to the Centurion, the poster-boy for how hitboxes should work before. The CT has been made larger, which is the opposite of what should happen. The Cent was fine save for the buggy area around the head; the rest of the mechs should have been modeled after the Cent and Stalker, instead of the other way around.

While I'm not keen on the way the changes have been implemented thus far, there are a lot of mechs yet to be remade, and it might not be too late to change the way the hitboxes are drawn.

[WarZ]

I've got to say I really like the concepts in this thread. They make a lot of sense. And they are so so so much better than trying to add random hit mechanics to the weapons.

Kudos.

[Deathlike]

Don't give aniviron too many ideas...

He'll make the PB the new meta.

[Grommen]

I think the changes are tweeks, and will help a little.

I think the problem with the short life span of mechs is exactly as you stated. You can hit the Center Torso with far greater accuracy than you should.

The armor diagram, internal set up, components, engine, etc. It's all biased on a system that assumed a random spread.

The way we shoot is a pin point dead accurate shot. Even when running 100KPH (50MPH give or take a bit) over uneven ground, slightly more or less gravity, and atmospheric density. All on a chassis that thuds and bangs. The gyro's keeping these guns locked in is increadable.

I get that no one wants to fire a weapon and have it miss, even if they line up the cross hairs. I'm not saying that if you aimed dead center on the mech it should fly over a shoulder. I'm simply saying that if your moving, bouncing, and your target is moving and bouncing things should not always hit exactly where you aim.

You can tweek the hit boxes all you want, but as long as everything on my mech shoots one location, were still gonna find that CT and still blow out the engine. You don't have tons of armor. You have your center torso armor.

[Biglead]

I'm glad somebody finally got the nerve to post on this..










No, seriously. I don't think I've seen a single thank you from the community for fixing hit boxes. I for one love the new changes to my Protector and I feel like a 75 ton mech should feel... Like a ******* brute. So thanks PGI and keep the hitbox improvements coming.

[Sable Dove]

To be honest, of the mechs fixed, I own an Atlas, Spider, Cicada, and Centurion.

Atlas didn't get changed much. it got bigger ST and smaller CT, which is arguably more of a nerf than a buff, since most don't have CT or head weapons, meaning they might live longer, but they'll have weapons for less time..

Spider got a fairly significant nerf. Hopefully it is undone when they improve HSR so that it works for small, fast targets.

Centurion got a minor fix, and nerf.

Cicada got a minor nerf.

So of all the mechs fixed so far, all of the ones I own got nerfed. One is debatable, one is to compensate for flaws in HSR, and the other two are for no apparent reason. The Cicada especially irks me, because it's already huge, and practically all CT. Since PGI refuses to look at the scale of mechs, hitboxes were the Cicada's only hope.

Also, with the Spider and Cicada, at least, damage to destroyed arms still goes to all sorts of places it doesn't belong. Often without being reduced. Considering that the stated goal of these passes was to fix precisely this, I honestly don't think thanks are warranted. They didn't fix the hitboxes so that damage is applied to the correct component. They didn't do the one thing they said they were going to do.

[Monkey Lover]

Grommen, on 05 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

I think the changes are tweeks, and will help a little.

I think the problem with the short life span of mechs is exactly as you stated. You can hit the Center Torso with far greater accuracy than you should.

The armor diagram, internal set up, components, engine, etc. It's all biased on a system that assumed a random spread.

The way we shoot is a pin point dead accurate shot. Even when running 100KPH (50MPH give or take a bit) over uneven ground, slightly more or less gravity, and atmospheric density. All on a chassis that thuds and bangs. The gyro's keeping these guns locked in is increadable.

I get that no one wants to fire a weapon and have it miss, even if they line up the cross hairs. I'm not saying that if you aimed dead center on the mech it should fly over a shoulder. I'm simply saying that if your moving, bouncing, and your target is moving and bouncing things should not always hit exactly where you aim.

You can tweek the hit boxes all you want, but as long as everything on my mech shoots one location, were still gonna find that CT and still blow out the engine. You don't have tons of armor. You have your center torso armor.

Man if they make it harder to shoot and move all I think it would do is make people use bigger mechs and pop tarts would double. What I would lime to see is more options on where to put armor.Take a locus the mech gets legged 95% of the time. I have never seen a headshot. If I had the option I would move 75% of the head armor to the legs.With my larger mech I would more more of my arm armor to the center.If we did this people would start aimimg for arms every so often to kill weapons too.

[Kaldor]

Yeah, hitbox restructuring....

WASTE OF TIME UNTIL THEY ACTUALLY SCALE THE MECHS BASED ON WEIGHT AND ARMOR CARRIED...

(not some arbitrary {Scrap} that was pull out someones...)

[Arcturious]

Pretty sure all the feedback I've seen so far is positive. I've run quite a few games now in all the effected mechs an think there is a noticeable difference for the better.

Also, none of the mechs have had their hit boxes increased beyond the geometry of the physical model as far as I know. The spider for example, they just made the hitbox actually equal the mechs physical dimensions, rather than just being a fraction smaller.

This pass has been both balance changes and bug fixes, which has resulted in much greater levels of realism in damage going where you hit, as well as improved allocation of damage for mechs like the Awesome and Orion.

So all around, haven't found anything I can say other than that these mechs all 'feel' they way they should have originally. Greatly improved from the stock hit boxes.

[Sable Dove]

Arcturious, on 05 December 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Also, none of the mechs have had their hit boxes increased beyond the geometry of the physical model as far as I know. The spider for example, they just made the hitbox actually equal the mechs physical dimensions, rather than just being a fraction smaller.

This is incorrect. The Spider's hitboxes extend well outside of the model, creating a hitbox bubble around the model. Go into the testing grounds and trace the Spider's hitboxes (your rangefinder changes based on hitboxes, rather than the model).

Aside from a few minor issues on other mechs, their hitboxes tend to be slightly smaller than the model. The Spider used to be the same. Now it's 5-10% larger by virtue of its hitboxes. Once they improve HSR, the Spider might as well be made of tissue paper if they don't take the hitboxes back to the size of the model.

[Carrioncrows]

I am glad of the hitbox changes.

Orion, very much needed.

The rest however were not even close to what needed done.

Feels a bit like Paul read the first lines of my thread and skipped the rest (Again)

I am dismayed because of the monumental amount of effort it took on the community's part to get them to look at it in the first place.

How many months / years is it going to take to get them to go back and fix them properly this time?

Monkey Lover, on 05 December 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Man if they make it harder to shoot and move all I think it would do is make people use bigger mechs....

Or it would give people a reason not to feel obligated to an assaults, because they could take a smaller mech without the fear of being 1 shot.

[Green Mamba]

I cant tell much of a difference

[Deathlike]

Sable Dove, on 05 December 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Spider got a fairly significant nerf. Hopefully it is undone when they improve HSR so that it works for small, fast targets.

Raven said:

Remember me? I got my legs nerfed hard by Paul.
Ask for Paul's help? Nevermore.

[Karl Streiger]

Bigger Arms, Bigger Legs - Side Torsos of the same size - head and CT narrowed down?

Call me in + we need more HP for internal systems to get the full flavor of the critical hit system.

Or in other words - we need more desperate fights in dying Mechs.

What we don't need: "Oh look I was shot - Oh look my CT armor is gone - Oh look critical damage...Oh I'm dead....

Some will say its not necessary and learn to twist:

But really? A good pilot will able to core you anyhow - when you don't twist.
So shooting will divide the good from the bad and torso twisting the elite from the good.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 December 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[Blackfoot]

I have piloted a spider as my main go to ride ever since they came out and your team would get pissy at you for dropping with one.

I've also noticed that since the hitbox changes there has not been a single thread about ERMAGOD SPIDERS ARE OP PLEASE FIX PGI!!! That you would see almost daily for the last several months.

And I have noticed no difference at all in the way my spider performs. I still regularly get 400-500 damage with a kill or two usually. I'm still usually one of the last mechs standing, and I still die fairly quick if I play stupidly.

People would always say smart *** stuff like "well, the only reason you're any good in a spider is becasue its broken." Nevermind the fact that I have way more hours in it than i do any other of my mechs. Skaters are gonna skate I guess.

[Leafia Barrett]

Blackfoot, on 06 December 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

I have piloted a spider as my main go to ride ever since they came out and your team would get pissy at you for dropping with one.

I've also noticed that since the hitbox changes there has not been a single thread about ERMAGOD SPIDERS ARE OP PLEASE FIX PGI!!! That you would see almost daily for the last several months.

And I have noticed no difference at all in the way my spider performs. I still regularly get 400-500 damage with a kill or two usually. I'm still usually one of the last mechs standing, and I still die fairly quick if I play stupidly.

People would always say smart *** stuff like "well, the only reason you're any good in a spider is becasue its broken." Nevermind the fact that I have way more hours in it than i do any other of my mechs. Skaters are gonna skate I guess.

This gives me hope that maybe I can be a proper Spider pilot now.