15 replies to this topic

[G-LOC]

Sorry slight rant after reading several mech threads.

I have always hated the clan mech naming convention, it makes no logical sense, it’s like a bunch of half baked authors just ran with some very poorly thought out ideas.

So my point is someone cocked up, they have to have done, it is way to coincidental to have the IS name for Timberwolf the Madcat and the clan name for the Vulture the Maddog, I’m guessing the original name was supposed to be Maddog and Madcat for the Clans (Or IS, it could go either way) but the Lore got a little bit rewritten with the whole naming being a slur on clan Wolf and the whole MAD-CAT Targeting computer designation when the clans first invaded. This little naming problem did not arise for the Thor and Loki who again share a same basic chassis and are stable mates yet there is and clan names match up with Thor and Loki being brothers and Hellbringer and Summoner also following a similar naming convention.

The fact is Madcat/Timberwolf and the Vulture/Maddog share the same basic chassis from the waist down so logic would dictate they would be manufactured together despite what lore says as it makes total logistical sense, this makes them effective stable mates and therefore should be fielded together as the logistics works by shipping mechs manufactured in the same place to the same location especially when you take into account the tiem it takes jumpships to navigate between star systems, therefore the naming should follow a trend as the same factories and designers would build them.

My second point is IS naming conventions are hackneyed and hyperbolic. New enemy weaponry may be given nicknames by frontline troops, the Devils Chariot etc but these are not ever going to be given officially, they conjure too much fear and that is the last thing you want from your troops, if a new enemy appears you don’t scare everyone half to death by giving this new enemy weaponry an official designation which translates as great death!!

The NATO designation for soviet aircraft/missiles was brought in for just this purpose when little was known about the enemy a codename was given which was related to what was known and non-threatening adjectives/nouns, bombers were all Bs, fighters F etc. Two or more syllables meant jet and single syllables meant prop, it just means that by the name alone you know what you are facing.

So way back in the 90’s a better system would have been to officially label mechs based on their chassis type or role, H for heavy, A for assault etc, unofficially the nicknames could still exist for frontline troops of course.

A 70 tonne Summoner Prime C70-Hatstand-P
A 75 tonne Timberwolf variant A C75-Hamper-A
A 100 tonne Dire Wolf Prime C100-Aggregate-A
A 55 tonne Stormcrow Variant C C55-Mainline-C

It may not sound as cool but it’s far more likely.

Maybe I should just give up and stop being annoyed with BT lore, it’s so ridiculous sometimes and with terrible authors like Stackpole what can you do.

[Diego Angelus]

All that naming is messy business. I like soldier given names because they usually give more meaning to vehicle then boring nato codes i mean hatstand really its like calling it pink pony or something I would burst out in laugh if someone told me to watch out for hatstand . I don't mind people using those nicks I actually like them I mean Marauder catapult genius best way to describe mech that you don't know anything about and vulture alone tells how it fought I'm just weak for those nicknames it makes me want to use them.

[G-LOC]

Diego Angelus, on 06 December 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

All that naming is messy business. I like soldier given names because they usually give more meaning to vehicle then boring nato codes i mean hatstand really its like calling it pink pony or something I would burst out in laugh if someone told me to watch out for hatstand . I don't mind people using those nicks I actually like them I mean Marauder catapult genius best way to describe mech that you don't know anything about and vulture alone tells how it fought I'm just weak for those nicknames it makes me want to use them.

Hatstand works because it stops the enemy from becoming such a scary prospect to fight, the NATO callsign for the Mig 1.42 MFI was Flatpack, this was a cheeky reference to the store MFI which sold flatpacked furniture. Frogfoot, Firkin, fishpot, fishbed are all fighter designation but none sound scary and that's the point

Don't get me wrong I like the nicknames and wouldn't want them changed, it just shows a lack of foresight back in the day which we all now have to live with.

[CyclonerM]

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This little naming problem did not arise for the Thor and Loki who again share a same basic chassis and are stable mates yet there is and clan names match up with Thor and Loki being brothers and Hellbringer and Summoner also following a similar naming convention.

This is because the first FC forces who first met the Jade Falcons recognized the similar chassis and named them conveniently (Thor because of the ERPPC in one "hand" and the autocannon in the other one, i do not remember exactly why Loki).

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So my point is someone cocked up, they have to have done, it is way to coincidental to have the IS name for Timberwolf the Madcat and the clan name for the Vulture the Maddog, I’m guessing the original name was supposed to be Maddog and Madcat for the Clans (Or IS, it could go either way) but the Lore got a little bit rewritten with the whole naming being a slur on clan Wolf and the whole MAD-CAT Targeting computer designation when the clans first invaded.
The fact is Madcat/Timberwolf and the Vulture/Maddog share the same basic chassis from the waist down so logic would dictate they would be manufactured together despite what lore says as it makes total logistical sense, this makes them effective stable mates and therefore should be fielded together as the logistics works by shipping mechs manufactured in the same place to the same location especially when you take into account the tiem it takes jumpships to navigate between star systems, therefore the naming should follow a trend as the same factories and designers would build them.

So you would give the same name to different 'Mechs, with different capabilities, standard weapon loadouts, tonnage and even physical appereance?
And what gives you this guess about Mad Cat and Mad Dog? It may have made sense but the targeting computer story is nice and having played MW2 i have no confusion about the different names. (ok this may not be true for everyone, buy one of my earliest memories is Betty naming "Mad Dog" the default 'Mech for the first Clan Wolf mission).

Anyway, it is not really like the F-15. There are F15 Eagle and F15 Strike Eagle, but their names are similar because IIRC the Strike Eagle is basically the same plane with a few upgrades and the add of some air-to-land strike capabilities.

Now, i think the difference between Timberwolf and Mad Dog is greater: they do not share the same chassis, but only some parts like most of the the leg assembly. If you look at the picture, you have an intuitive idea of the difference IMHO.
Timberwolf:

Spoiler

Mad Dog:

Spoiler

AND

F-15 Eagle

Spoiler

F-15 Strike Eagle

Spoiler

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if a new enemy appears you don’t scare everyone half to death by giving this new enemy weaponry an official designation which translates as great death!!

Thanks to

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the criminal underbelly of the Draconis Combine,

However, i understand that would be difficult for a soldier facing a Dire Wolf to not feel fear. How good would be to name a 'Mech "Pink Bunny" when you face a 12 meters high impressive monster of steel and ferro-fibrous armor? 'Mechs have an intrinsic psicologic weapon.

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A 70 tonne Summoner Prime C70-Hatstand-P
A 75 tonne Timberwolf variant A C75-Hamper-A
A 100 tonne Dire Wolf Prime C100-Aggregate-A
A 55 tonne Stormcrow Variant C C55-Mainline-C

It has some sense, but with this system what is your benefit? You know the tonnage of the 'Mech, the Clan affiliation and the variant.
If the enemy fields 5 new 'Mechs, i assume front-line troops would study the known specs of such machines.. So what is the point of remembering in the name the tonnage of a Timberwolf? Is it so hard to remember it is 75 tons? Is it so important? Same for the Clan affiliation, i doubt that "C" would help so much. Variant: i remember heaving read that the targeting computer automatically detects the weapon loadout of enemy targets and if it is stored in its database it will label it with the correct variant on the MechWarrior's HUD.

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Maybe I should just give up and stop being annoyed with BT lore, it’s so ridiculous sometimes and with terrible authors like Stackpole what can you do.

What is there in the lore that is so ridicolous but cannot be explained by the equation "tabletop game rules = lore" ?

And i have read some novels by Stackpole and i must say the thing i hate the most in his writing are "stackpoling" explosions. I do not find many other "terrible" flaws. Maybe it is because i am not an english native speaker , but i generally find all the Classic Battletech novels interesting.
I actually did not have a very good first impression of a Dark Age novel i started to read and i don't even remember its name anymore.

Edited by CyclonerM, 06 December 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

The NATO reporting names have little/nothing to do with "fearsomeness" or lack thereof.

"To reduce the risk of confusion, unusual or made-up names were allocated, the idea being that the names chosen would be unlikely to occur in normal conversation, and be easier to memorize. For fixed-wing aircraft, single-syllable words denoted piston-prop and turboprop, while multiple-syllable words denoted jets. Bombers had names starting with the letter B and names like Badger (2 syllables: jet), Bear (single syllable: propeller), and Blackjack were used. “Frogfoot,” the reporting name for the Sukhoi Su-25, references the aircraft’s close air support role. Transports had names starting with C (as in “cargo”), which resulted in names like Condor or Candid."
(See also: here and here)

For specific examples, the La-11 was known as the "Fang", the Yak-28 was known as the "Firebar" (fighter subvariant) and "Maestro" (miscellaneous/multi-purpose subvariants), the Mi-28 is known as the "Havoc", and the capabilities & performance of the Mi-24 have made "Hind" a name not to be taken too lightly.

While somewhat fanciful (e.g. "Mad Cat" referring to that 'Mech's appearance being something of a blend of the Marauder (MAD-xx series) and the Catapult, "Vulture" referring to that 'Mech's supposed visual resemblance to the birds of the same name, "Thor" referring to the combination of "lightning" (PPC) and "thunder" (LB 10-X) and "rain" (LRM-15) with which the primary variant is armed (and with "Zeus" already being taken), "Loki" referring to the "utterly mad" weapon mix of its primary configuration as described by either Ardan Sortek or Galen Cox (I forget which), and so on), the Clan 'Mech reporting names do actually fill the same general niche as those used by NATO (e.g. terms that do not come up in common/routine speech, thus being unlikely to be confused with anything other than the 'Mechs in question).

[CyclonerM]

Strum Wealh, on 06 December 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

"Thor" referring to the combination of "lightning" (PPC) and "thunder" (LB 10-X) and "rain" (LRM-15) with which the primary variant is armed (and with "Zeus" already being taken), "Loki" referring to the "utterly mad" weapon mix of its primary configuration as described by either Ardan Sortek or Galen Cox (I forget which), and so on),

Yes, now i remember everything, i had read it again a few days ago. Galen Cox named the Hellbringer and Victor Davion named the Thor.

[Ryoken]

You can also see that the Devs did not think of the norse/nordic slang of House Steiner from the beginning.
Names like Thor or Loki or Uller would be more likely applied to their own chassis instead of enemy mechs.

While I understand that Steiner typical Mechs like Atlas, Commando and also Griffin, Crusader, Thunderbold got no Norse/German naming because of their common Starleague herritage. I can not understand it in case of the Zeus beeing the first lyran developed mech.

One can see that the Devs got the idea of further differentiating the houses by mech naming very late in designs like Blitzkrieg or Hauptmann. Only exception of early German naming is the Sturmfeuer tank, but iirc it was spelled wrong.

Edited by Ryoken, 06 December 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

This entire thought process is also somewhat predicated on the IS being a singular entity. They met the Clans in different ways at different times and under differing circumstances. That the DCMS designation for the Masakari caught on IS wide is probably more incredible than any of the rest of this.

[Samuel Jackson]

Each clan developed their own battlemechs and then omnimechs after Op. Klondike, then fought trials for other clans successful mechs. The Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf were successful Clan Wolf designs and the Mad Dog was named by another clan to spite the imagery of Clan Wolf.

[SilvaDraconis]

Militaries always give simple names to enemy hardware. And things are rarely as clean as you seem to imply as far as fielding or building chassis.

[G-LOC]

Ryoken, on 06 December 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

You can also see that the Devs did not think of the norse/nordic slang of House Steiner from the beginning.
Names like Thor or Loki or Uller would be more likely applied to their own chassis instead of enemy mechs.

While I understand that Steiner typical Mechs like Atlas, Commando and also Griffin, Crusader, Thunderbold got no Norse/German naming because of their common Starleague herritage. I can not understand it in case of the Zeus beeing the first lyran developed mech.

One can see that the Devs got the idea of further differentiating the houses by mech naming very late in designs like Blitzkrieg or Hauptmann. Only exception of early German naming is the Sturmfeuer tank, but iirc it was spelled wrong.

This is where it really makes sense and mirrors the real world, you apply dangerous sounding and nation inspiring names to your own builds not the enemies all that serves to do is add propaganda for the enemy's cause.

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Yes, now i remember everything, i had read it again a few days ago. Galen Cox named the Hellbringer and Victor Davion named the Thor.

And this was the crux of my point, two frontline officers named mechs and it stuck? I don't buy it, in a real world situation information would be sent back to New Avalon/Tharkad and they would be assigned codenames and more likely than anything else number designations, maybe just maybe then something would stick that would count as a nickname/ reporting name, but it certainly wouldn't be instant.

A universal naming structure for the enemy would be brought into effect for all of the AAFC units for recognition and information sharing, similar to aircrast charts i nworld war 2 and I strongly doubt the AAFC would fancy the idea of trying to pronounce Masakari and Daishi properly just because the DCMS saw them a few weeks earlier and of course vice versa for the DCMS, both of these factions weren't exactly on good terms in early 3050 anyway so initial information sharing seems highly unlikely.

Edited by CTF GLOC, 06 December 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[CyclonerM]

CTF GLOC, on 06 December 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

And this was the crux of my point, two frontline officers named mechs and it stuck? I don't buy it, in a real world situation information would be sent back to New Avalon/Tharkad and they would be assigned codenames and more likely than anything else number designations, maybe just maybe then something would stick that would count as a nickname/ reporting name, but it certainly wouldn't be instant.

You forget that those officers were the hair to the throne of the Federated Commonwealth and his aide
And the "Mad Cat" was chosen as official designation for the Timberwolf by the Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht in person.

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I strongly doubt the AAFC would fancy the idea of trying to pronounce Masakari and Daishi properly just because the DCMS saw them a few weeks earlier and of course vice versa for the DCMS, both of these factions weren't exactly on good terms in early 3050 anyway so initial information sharing seems highly unlikely.

Ok, i suppose this is to avoid confusion. We already have double names for Clan 'Mechs, it'd be a mess if they had a name for each Successor State, quiaff?

[Strum Wealh]

Samuel Jackson, on 06 December 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Each clan developed their own battlemechs and then omnimechs after Op. Klondike, then fought trials for other clans successful mechs. The Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf were successful Clan Wolf designs and the Mad Dog was named by another clan to spite the imagery of Clan Wolf.

For the record, the Daishi was designed by Clan Wolf, but was actually built primarily by Clan Smoke Jaguar and is canonically associated with CSJ (and thus, arguably used by them) more than anyone else (including the Wolves) during the earlier stages of the initial invasion...

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The Daishi is a favorite 'Mech among Clan Smoke Jaguar forces, who have used it to break through Kurita defenses time and again. According to dubious but persistent rumors, the Draconis Combine has managed to capture a Daishi intact. How Inner Sphere MechWarriors could seize such a war machine is a mystery, short of the defection of a Clan MechWarrior--an impossible act, from all that we know of these warlike people.

(Source: TRO 3050, pg. 42)

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The Dire Wolf (or Daishi, as it is known to the Inner Sphere) was still on Clan Wolf drawing boards when Smoke Jaguar warriors learned of the creation of the “Ultimate Assault OmniMech.” Knowing they had to have it for themselves, the Jaguars declared a Trial of Possession (in which the Jaguars danced on boundaries of zellbrigen) and wrestled the design from the Wolves’ jaws.
The Daishi came off the Huntress production lines in 3010 and was manufactured until Inner Sphere forces razed the Phan Industrialplex in 3060.

-----

After losing the design to the Jaguars, the Wolves honor demanded action, but a Trial of Refusal would have compelled the proud Jaguars to escalate the conflict. Instead, Star Colonel Ulric initiated a Trial of Possession only for the rights to manufacture the Daishi, which he won in 3019.
Other Clans could only acquire the deadly OmniMech through trade or as isorla. Using technical information provided by Khan Kerlin Ward, Wolf’s Dragoons began manufacturing Daishis on Outreach in the late 3040s.

(Source: TRO 3050U, pg. 144)

[Zerberus]

CTF GLOC, on 06 December 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Hatstand works because it stops the enemy from becoming such a scary prospect to fight, the NATO callsign for the Mig 1.42 MFI was Flatpack, this was a cheeky reference to the store MFI which sold flatpacked furniture. Frogfoot, Firkin, fishpot, fishbed are all fighter designation but none sound scary and that's the point ....

Unfortunately, sometime in teh late 70s they started running out of "euphemistic" names, and used names like Flogger, Flanker, and Foxbat which paid more homage to what could happen if you screwed up

Edited by Zerberus, 08 December 2013 - 03:54 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Zerberus, on 08 December 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Unfortunately, sometime in teh late 70s they started running out of "euphemistic" names, and used names like Flogger, Flanker, and Foxbat which paid more homage to what could happen if you screwed up

Agreed, in the past the soldiers had to not have fear of the enemy or they would have ran away from the battlefield and had to be devoted to their leader so they could die for him.

Today a soldier must know his enemies and his weapons. If you fear them, you will not run suicidal attacks leading to your death and maybe ultimately that of your mates.