95 replies to this topic

[ciller]

This is what Russ thinks of SRMS:

Russ Twitter said:

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  @Paul Chapman ‏@ChapDude12
  @russ_bullock thxs for working late on that. Now if we could get an update on the status of a fix for SRM hit reg ;D hint hint nudge nudge

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  Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock12h
  @ChapDude that's an example of something likely just has to be good enough for a while so we can focus completely on CW
  
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  Paul Chapman @ChapDude12h
  @russ_bullock As disappointing as that is to hear, i do understand. hopefully it can be fixed quickly when the time magically appears :/
  
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  Matthew Gardner @Itziclinic10h
  @russ_bullock @ChapDude I thought you hired a dev to specifically handle HSR? Waiting a year for SRMs/brawling just seems a bit wonky.
  
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  EnigmaNL ‏@EnigmaNL10h
  @russ_bullock So you're saying you're okay with the fact that SRM's suck balls until you guys FINALLY get around to completing CW?
  
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  jay ‏@jamiesonclark10h
  @russ_bullock @ChapDude can the speed of the missiles be increased? like 2x? that might be a good temporary fix!
  
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  Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock
  @EnigmaNL chat with @Paul_Inouye about HSR and SRM's

So, we wont get SRMs fixed for another 6 months to a year, and then it will be only the HSR aspect of it? That's what I'm getting from this. Also that Russ could care less about the balance of the game.

With a small decrease to heat penalty to the shorter range lasers as well as a damage increase to SRMs we can actually have a balance of short range and long range game styles that are relevant, instead of 95% of players running jump jetting long range alpha builds.

Can we get a little balance to this game please?

Edited by ciller, 17 December 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Black Ivan]

Looks like PGI is not interested in game balance.

[Hoboshank]

At least from my perspective PGI has always had it out to nerf srms. In one of the ghost heat announcement post, Paul mentioned the splat cat as a possibly-gamebreaking mech that could decimate any assault in 3 volleys. Forgetting the fact that you'll get your ct cored out before you fire the 2nd salvo against any pilot worth their salt. It seems like every tweak to srms has been put out with the fear of the missile-boating boogieman in mind, and I'm not entirely convinced that this threat really ever existed outside of low elo games. I only got here at the tail end of closed beta so maybe I missed it, but it still seems if you are skilled enough to get within that 270m sweetspot without being vaporized you should be rewarded with impactful srm punches.

[SpiralFace]

They did mention that there where HSR improvements in this patch, so I'm hoping that SRM's inadvertently get a boost from this.

The devs have commented that the problem doesn't lye in the way the SRM's are designed or implemented in the game, but that the HSR desyncs and fails to register hits properly.

HSR is always an issue in online games, even the latest battlefield game suffers from similar issues, but those tend to be issues in regards to registration happening when they SHOULDN'T. This game has it the other way around.

Its all tied to the same issue that all online games struggle with. I'm not sure what makes SRM's that much more HSR threatening then others. (Maybe their slower trajectory angle and the fact that you need to lead targets more?) But its something that they have said on multiple occasions is a long term problem that is tied into the entire HSR issue, not the SRM's themselves.

So even if HSR isn't to the point that SRM's benefit from it yet, Improvements in the HSR can only be beneficial for the SRMs in the long run, and might indicate that there is at least progress being made on that front.

[ciller]

SRMs don't need just an HSR fix but a damage buff, a flight path upgrade, and the re-introduction of splash damage. Even if they hit all the time, it's basically like sneezing all over their mech. Irritates them a little but they don't have to worry unless they are cherry red with no armour.

No one uses them any more.

[BlackDrakon]

Spiral, the thing is that they werent this bad before, the Hit detection problem started after they nerfed the {Scrap} out of them, taking splash damage and lowering they damage to 1.5 per missile.

Splatcats was not problem, the problem was good players vs bad or new players, if you get behind a HGN-733C meta mech with your splatcat, he should pay the price. Now we got ELO, we got 2.0 damage per missile and ghost heat SRMS. Add to that the slow and spread trajectory + awfull Hit Detection + almost none splash damage = UNUSABLE SRMS.

Besides that, they didnt touch the matter of hit detection and srms in their post, so yea, we are screwed. They dont give a dimme on resources for this BIG problem. Well they wont get a dimme from me either.

N.O.P.E.

[SpiralFace]

SRM's never worked properly, which is why the old "splash" system was both a boon for the game and a bust.

The "splash" damage only masked the core problems. Hit reg was just as busted on those old missiles, but the splash damage pretty much "made up" for the registration problems.

Who cares if an SRM 6 only has 2 missiles that reg against an opponent, when those missiles splash damage exponentially compiled up on each other.

Which is why they ended up being so potent against other mechs and ultimately why they where WAY to potent against slower mechs.

Against fast mechs, they where fine because even if only one or two missles in a 6 pack registered, you still had the splash damage to make up the difference.

But against slower designs that didn't have the same hit reg issues (Slower targets don't have as much server Desync,) It ended up where the exponentially compiled damage ended up making SRM's the most potent weapon in the game. More so then any other weapons around.

"Splat cats" where able to exploit this and pretty much one shot nearly any mech in the game that it was able to sneak up behind because of the way that both nearly all the missiles would hit slower targets, and the fact that the AoE damage would literally transfer to all areas on the body (Including the head.)

Just because they where usable because they where so powerful didn't mean they where "working" as intended. The Desync has always been there, It was just masked by the overly powerful AoE of singular registered missile hits, and became insanely OP when the hit reg worked as intended, and the compiled damage allowed for mechs to pretty much one / two shot one another.

Ultimately I feel the removal of AoE damage is good in the long run for the weapon, but they should do SOMETHING until they fix the darn HSR. But it becomes a more difficult issue because the faster targets that SRM's SHOULD be good against are the ones that suffer from the HSR the most, while the slower targets that don't suffer as much of the HSR problems as the smaller designs do end up getting the shaft because any adjustment to make SRM's more powerful to compensate against lighter designs is the same thing that makes them super powerful against the slower designs. Against slower designs like Assaults and Heavies, SRM's are still actually halfway decent, but the hit reg issues makes them nearly useless against lights.

Its a pick your poison at this point. Older SRM's has AoE to mask the effects of the hit reg issues and where decent against lights, but the AoE made them stupid powerful against slower mechs. Current implementation sees them as being "ok" vs. Heavy designs, but next to useless against lights.

Not because that is how the weapon is supposed to work, but simply because the problems with HSR affect one class of mech more then others.

[Asmudius Heng]

Until hit registration is fixed it is very difficult to tell how useful SRMs are in their current state.

I think buffing them would be like PPCs - they were buffed to usability based on terrible hit rates without HSR. Once it got fixed they were too powerful and the balancing dance started again.

SRMs do suck but i would rather see HSR in first before adjustment ... unless that is going to take 6 months i guess ...

[SpiralFace]

Not sure if people follow the fiasco that has been happening with BF. But its a "semi similar" problem with the hit detection and the desyncs between everything.

http://i.imgur.com/aDg6MvU.png

Now I don't have access to the tools that PGI uses, so I'm not entirely sure if this is a similar problem, but the basic idea of sending packs and comparing it to sent packs on the server is the same. Current issues with the hit reg desyncs can be a result of:

- Calculating the trajectories of MULTIPLE ballistics individually rather then locked pre-determined "clumps" (LRMS) means that every missile has to be calculated individually for dynamic calculations including range tracking (as the missiles detonate at their maximum range) trajectories, to hit collisions with ENV assets (ledges obsticles,) and obviously against character hit boxes. Which is made more complicated as MW has MUCH more complicated damage system then any other FPS out there. (Which usually have a shared health HP system that grants players double to 4x damage for shots that hit a head hit box.)

- physics tend to complicate the system even more. (Bullet drop on ballistic weapons.) Desyncs etc caused by the bullet drop calculations is what I imagine got fixed when they said the Ballistics model has been improved this patch. But stability to one system CAN sometimes lead to stability elsewhere. The Hit Scan Reg is a GLOBAL system that affects other weapons. (SRM's just get the short end of the stick because of the inadequecy's of the ENTIRE system.) So fixes to some parts of the system can sometimes mean global improvements.

- Post State Re-wind is a tool that might end up being the help we need for the SRM's to be fixed, but like any system that is heavily rooted in every aspect of the game. (remember, HSR is a global system.) it will take awhile to get to the bottom of everything going on.

Keep in mind, this is all a heavy dose of speculation. I have no idea what they over there are seeing, but that is the issue with HSR in online games in general. But this is just an overview of what COULD be going on. And that is part of the problem. Stuff like this is firmly rooted in every aspect of the game, so its not like there is a direct source that they can go to to fix an individual thing, but its something that has to be pieced apart and fixed as an entire global package and system. Its not something that they can just jump in and say "SRM's are busted, we should fix that."

[BlackDrakon]

I dont really care what is the problem they have, they were functional for X or Y motive before, I want them to be usable again.

With all their flaws, they were not an OP weapon system in any of their combinations, you cant compare them to PPC/UAC5 combos now since they lack of pinpoint damage and range, reload capacity is ridiculus compared to this wpns.

Get them back to what they were, with all their flaws and pros, ill take them any day instead of the poptart wpns.

[Deathlike]

The correct answer to this question: In 2014, or post-CW (2015).

[Steel Will]

ciller, on 17 December 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

This is what Russ thinks of SRMS:

Maybe Russ, being the president of PGI, should be the one chatting with Paul about SRM's given the continued lack of movement on this.

And if splash damage and proper hit reg works on arty strikes as it apparently does, WTF is keeping that from being fixed for missiles?

[Flying Blind]

Here we are a month later and while not too many of us can agree on what is wrong with SRMs everyone knows they are bad.

I think we all understand that HSR and hit registration is a big issue that PGI just doesn't have the resources to fix right now.

So let's fix the easy stuff.

Give us 2.5 damage per missile and the old flight path back. Streaks are doing 2.5 per missile and when they hit they almost always do damage and guess what: mechs with 3 streak-2 packs do more damage than mechs with 3 Artemis srm6. This is sad and wrong.
Please fix this. Everyone who agrees that SRMs need fixing (for whatever reason) needs to start making nois again so PGI can hear us.

SRM fix being a year or more down the road is not acceptable, PGI needs to do something now.

[The Unknown Pilot]

Feetwet, on 06 December 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Soon^TM !

Actually Not Soon.

PGI told NGNG boys that it's on the back burner until all the new features are in. They are aware, just not fixing it for a while....

[Deathlike]

The Unknown Pilot, on 14 January 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Actually Not Soon Enough™.

Fixed for you.

[Flying Blind]

The Unknown Pilot, on 14 January 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Actually Not Soon.

PGI told NGNG boys that it's on the back burner until all the new features are in. They are aware, just not fixing it for a while....

Which is why we need a stop-gap measure such as 2.5 damage per missile, and / or flight path / spread buffs.

This game cannot be balanced without some sort of strong close range game. SRMs should be the weapon system that allows that.

SRMs have been broken for something like a year, hey PGI this fix is way over due.

Edited by Flying Blind, 14 January 2014 - 02:26 PM.