23 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

I have a question that I can't seem to answer from researching the Sarna pages on toumans.

What is the difference between Point 1 - 5 and a Point Commander?

According to Sarna, every mech in a point is assigned their point number, but this is assigned by the Point Commander, so who/what and where is the Point Commander in this structure?

Point Commander would seem the same in rank as anyone of Point 1 - 5.

Here is some links I have been looking at:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Touman
http://www.sarna.net...ud_Cobra_Touman
http://www.sarna.net...int_1#The_Clans (same as Point 2)
http://www.sarna.net...int_3#The_Clans (same as Point 4 and 5)
http://www.sarna.net...Point_Commander

Edited by Zyllos, 08 December 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

A Star is five Points.
In a BattleMech unit, a Point is one BattleMech.

Since every BattleMech is a Point, every MechWarrior is a Point Commander.

The last link in your post explains that Point Commander means nothing in BattleMech units, but means more in other units (aerospace fighters, armor, Elementals, conventional infantry, etc.) where a Point is more than one physical entity.

In aerospace fighter units, a Point is two fighters.
In armor units, a Point is two tanks/vehicles.
In Elemental units, a Point is five Elementals.
In conventional infantry units, a Point is 25 soldiers.

Since Point Commander means nothing in BattleMech units, it shouldn't be used at all.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 08 December 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Zyllos]

Durant Carlyle, on 08 December 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

A Star is five Points.
In a BattleMech unit, a Point is one BattleMech.

Since every BattleMech is a Point, every MechWarrior is a Point Commander.

The last link in your post explains that Point Commander means nothing in BattleMech units, but means more in other units (aerospace fighters, armor, Elementals, conventional infantry, etc.) where a Point is more than one physical entity.

In aerospace fighter units, a Point is two fighters.
In armor units, a Point is two tanks/vehicles.
In Elemental units, a Point is five Elementals.
In conventional infantry units, a Point is 25 soldiers.

Since Point Commander means nothing in BattleMech units, it shouldn't be used at all.

That explanation makes sense. It just seems odd that a MechWarrior, which is a Point Commander, would be tied to rank of Point 1 - 5 for a star, but yet there is a Point Commander rank for "non-mech" stars. What happens in mixed stars, like 4 Mechs and 1 Elemental unit? Who is the Point Commander? Is Point 1 - 5 actually higher in rank than a Point Commander? Or is the Point Commander just assigned to any MechWarrior pilot, even though they are tied to Point 1 - 5?

The main reason why I ask is that I am trying to develop touman and I am just confused by this. Technically, since we never pilot anything other than battlemechs, should the "Point Commander" title just be removed and everyone can be assigned Point 1 - 5?

Edited by Zyllos, 08 December 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Zyllos]

Also, since Stars are lead by Star Commanders, who is Point 1 - 5 and who is Point Commander within a star?

From the above explanation, every member is a Point Commander, except the Star Commander. Then, each member is assigned Point 1 - 5 as an unofficial rank. This is odd because these are assigned by the Point Commander but yet every member is a Point Commander.

Edited by Zyllos, 08 December 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[CyclonerM]

1 point of Elementals is 5 elementals, a point commander commands a point of 5 men, 5 points make a Star of 25 Elementals.
1 point of Aerospace Fighters or combat vehicles is 2 ASFs or vehicles, supposedly a point commander is the leader of the pair , and 5 points make a Star of 10 Fighters or 10 combat, vehicles.

In 'Mech units, 1 point is 1 'Mech while 5 'Mechs form a Star of 5 machines. So in a 'Mech Star a "Point Commander" = "MechWarrior" so they basically command themselves lol. "Point Commander" for 'Mech pilots is rarely used.

Points go from point 5 to point 1 who should be the Star Commander.

Also, as far as i know, mixed Stars are not used while mixed binaries/trinaries/novas/supernovas are used (1 'Mech Star and 1 Elemental Star or Fighter Star or Artillery Star).

To summarize:
in a 'Mech Star, there are 5 points, points 5-1.
Each point is a BattleMech, so every 'MechWarrior is a point commander BUT this means nothing because he commands only his 'Mech. Point 1 is the Star Commander who commands the MechWarriors (point commanders).

But you will almost never find "point commander" regarding 'Mech jocks.

Edited by CyclonerM, 08 December 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Zyllos]

CyclonerM, on 08 December 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

1 point of Elementals is 5 elementals, a point commander commands a point of 5 men, 5 points make a Star of 25 Elementals.
1 point of Aerospace Fighters or combat vehicles is 2 ASFs or vehicles, supposedly a point commander is the leader of the pair , and 5 points make a Star of 10 Fighters or 10 combat, vehicles.

In 'Mech units, 1 point is 1 'Mech while 5 'Mechs form a Star of 5 machines. So in a 'Mech Star a "Point Commander" = "MechWarrior" so they basically command themselves lol. "Point Commander" for 'Mech pilots is rarely used.

Points go from point 5 to point 1 who should be the Star Commander.

Also, as far as i know, mixed Stars are not used while mixed binaries/trinaries/novas/supernovas are used (1 'Mech Star and 1 Elemental Star or Fighter Star or Artillery Star).

To summarize:
in a 'Mech Star, there are 5 points, points 5-1.
Each point is a BattleMech, so every 'MechWarrior is a point commander BUT this means nothing because he commands only his 'Mech. Point 1 is the Star Commander who commands the MechWarriors (point commanders).

But you will almost never find "point commander" regarding 'Mech jocks.

Ok, makes sense.

But isn't there a "Star Commander" rank with it's own individual rank and insignia, at least according to every Clan's touman page I have seen?

The way I see this playing out, those who are not assigned to a formal unit, would be assigned as Point Commander, which we have a unique rank and insignia for.

When assigned to a unit, each mech warrior will be assigned a Point 1 - 5 to designate their rank (even though technically everyone is of the same rank), which with their unique rank and insignia.

Then, each star has a Star Commander assigned to it, based on the number of players we have available, which will have their unique rank and insignia.

If at any point, a real Star Commander is not present, then the leader of the star is based on the highest Point rank.

I think this will establish a full chain of command, give each player an established default of who should be giving commands, if needed. The only problem is that the Point Commander rank, which "sounds" higher than Point 1 - 5, is technically not higher but one and the same.

Either way, thanks for trying to clear this up. I think I have finally gotten this down after the 7th try and remaking insignias...lol

Edited by Zyllos, 08 December 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Mmh.. Actually the Star Commander IS superior to the lower points or he would not be a Star Commander
Points are supposed to be "different" rank since "lower" points should be "superior" rank so the point 1 is the "commander point". In fact Trials of Possession may be issued to get a better point in one's Star.

So, points insignias are variants of the MechWarrior insignia, as is the Star Commander's.

Lol you are confusing me as well

Edited by CyclonerM, 08 December 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

In a Mech Star which is 5, there are four mechwarriors & 1 Star Commander/Star Captain/Star Colonel.

In an Elemental Star which is 25, there are 20 Points, 4 Point Commanders & 1 Star Commander.

Technically each Mechwarrior is a Point Commander but they do not use that rank.

[Zyllos]

Jaroth Corbett, on 08 December 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

In a Mech Star which is 5, there are four mechwarriors & 1 Star Commander/Star Captain/Star Colonel.

In an Elemental Star which is 25, there are 20 Points, 4 Point Commanders & 1 Star Commander.

Technically each Mechwarrior is a Point Commander but they do not use that rank.

That helps a little bit. But there is 5 points in a star of mechs. The Star Commander, their own individual rank and insignia, commands the star, which leaves 4 points left, but there is Point 1 - 5, each with their own individual rank and insignia.

So...even though each Point 1 - 5 is suppose to mark their position within a star, maybe each position doesn't need to be filled by Point 1 - 5? Maybe you could have four Point 1 rank Mech Warriors and 1 Star Commander? Or a mix of Point 5, Point 2, Point 2, Point 1, and Star Commander?

[CyclonerM]

Zyllos, on 08 December 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

That helps a little bit. But there is 5 points in a star of mechs. The Star Commander, their own individual rank and insignia, commands the star, which leaves 4 points left, but there is Point 1 - 5, each with their own individual rank and insignia.

So...even though each Point 1 - 5 is suppose to mark their position within a star, maybe each position doesn't need to be filled by Point 1 - 5? Maybe you could have four Point 1 rank Mech Warriors and 1 Star Commander? Or a mix of Point 5, Point 2, Point 2, Point 1, and Star Commander?

Neg, i understand that there are always 1 point 5, 1 point 4 etc. because it is like counting the points of a star

[Zyllos]

Then how can you have Point 1 - 5 but still a Star Commander if each is an individual rank and insignia?

[CyclonerM]

Zyllos, on 08 December 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Then how can you have Point 1 - 5 but still a Star Commander if each is an individual rank and insignia?

Point 1 is always a Star Commander , if you look at the Clan Wolf Star Commander insignia is basically a point commander insignia plus a red star, means he is a point commander but also a Star Commander.

[Zyllos]

According to Sarna, Point 1 and 2 is equivalent to corporal.

Point 3, 4, and 5 is equivalent to sergeant.

Sergeant is higher than corporal.

So, that would make Point 5 the highest rank, and Point 5 looks nothing like the Star Commander. Of course, neither does Point 1 or any of the others.

Look at Jade Falcon: http://www.sarna.net...e_Falcon_Touman

Why would Point 5, represented with a right hand bar, just like a Star Commander, but also include gold stars, represent lower rank?

Now, if you flip that, and say Point 5 is actually higher rank, that contradicts the idea that Point 5 is actually a Star Commander because it most looks like the Jade Falcon Star Commander. Point 5 looks the least like a Star Commander.

And none of this solves why a Star Commander has it's own rank and insignia if Point 1 (or Point 5, which ever it is suppose to be) is just suppose to be the Star Commander.

The issue is there is 6 physical insignias and ranks for only a 5 member group, a star, but yet every rank and insignia should be represented by the star.

[Zyllos]

Now, here is a question.

Is Star Commander and Point Commander not suppose to be used for MechWarriors?

Is a Point 5 (or Point 1) MechWarrior equivalent to a Star Commander while all other Point 1 - 4 (or 2 - 5) are various ranks of Point Commanders?

This would mean that a group of infantry, which each Point represents 25 individuals, would have 1 Point Commander, and 5 Points would have 5 Point Commanders and 1 Star Commander.

But for MechWarriors, each member is already a Point Commander, and the Star Commander is included among one of the Points, thus each member is ranked by their individual Point 1 - 5. The highest Point is considered the same as a Star Commander while the rest are all considered Point Commanders.

This would alleviate any issues I am having, if the above is true.

[kevin roshak]

Star Commander is the leader of the star, stars are 5 mechwarriors four have a rank of mechwarrior, and one mechwarrior (a point) is the star commander. he is also in control of his mech, but he also gives orders to the rest of star.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star

Mechwarriors are not given the title of point commander, they are given the title of Mechwarrior.

http://www.sarna.net...Point_Commander
look at that and then click around on the ranks, should aleviate your questions

Edited by kevin roshak, 08 December 2013 - 11:29 PM.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Here is the chart that explains this the best.

When a commander falls the next in line takes command.



http://www.sarna.net...nd_Organization


Ranks and the units they can command Rank^[56] Unit Consists of^[57] Warrior N/A N/A Squad Commander Squad 5 Warriors Point Commander Point 1 'Mech, 2 Aerospace fighters, 5 Elementals, 5 squads. Star Commander Star 5 Points Nova^[58] 1 'Mech Star and 1 Elemental Star (10 Points) Star Captain^[59] Binary 2 Stars (10 Points) Trinary 3 Stars (15 Points) Super Nova 2 'Mech Stars and 2 Elemental Stars (20 Points) Super Nova Trinary 3 'Mech Stars and 3 Elemental Stars (30 Points) Star Colonel Cluster 2-5 Binaries, Trinaries, Super Novas and/or Super Nova Trinaries (20 to 150 Points) Galaxy Commander Galaxy 2-5 Clusters (40 to 750 Points)

[CyclonerM]

I heard Sarna has proved to be inaccurate so far..

AFAIK, Point 1 is the highest rank . "Point commander" rank is rarely used for MechWarriors , who are indeed MechWarriors. Poin 1 is the Star Commander ( i never understood why there is an insignia for point 1 and one for Star Com but given the star comm insignia is just a point 1 insignia plus a star it never gave me too much trouble ).

As Barkem mentioned, if points 1 (the Star Commander) dies or is knocked down or whatever point 2 takes the command, if point 2 falls point 3 takes the command and so on, this is why a "lower" point is a higher rank.

[Zyllos]

Ok, so basically, what I said above, the Point Commander and Star Commander insignia's should technically not be used when determining MechWarrior's rank.

MechWarriors have their own division of rank, Point 1 - 5, which equate between the ranks of Point Commander and Star Commander (Corporal and Sergeant if comparing to the Inner Sphere).

So, in making touman, would you guys suggest that while I can make the Point Commander and Star Commander insignias and ranks, technically, since we are all MechWarriors, they should not be used, instead each individual player should be given rank of Point 1 - 5?

[CyclonerM]

Zyllos, on 09 December 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

So, in making touman, would you guys suggest that while I can make the Point Commander and Star Commander insignias and ranks, technically, since we are all MechWarriors, they should not be used, instead each individual player should be given rank of Point 1 - 5?

I would do as we do in our Clan: point 5-2 insignias and Star Commander insignia for point 1.

[Swamp Ass MkII]

Technically, Point Warrior 1 - 5 make no sense in MWO... Reason, they don't exist...
Star commander is a commander of 4 other mech, for a total of 5 points, making a star.
Star Captain, commands 2 to 3 stars.
Nova Commanders only used by few factions, command 3 star and one other battle suit element I think it is... So, irreverent in MWO.

In reality, all the clan ranks, except Point Commander really make no sense in MWO in a given game, as there would be 2 stars, and 2 additional mech! So, thinking about it, Start Captain, Star Commanders x 2, and 9 Point Commanders in a given 12 player game!