675 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Varent, on 31 December 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

Answer - Currently there are set groups and things that tend to beat other builds. There is no god build. There is a dominant meta, but its not unbeatable. That said the current 'dominant meta' at least takes skill. I have trouble appreciating a meta that just makes brawlers gods and neuters any other possibility, which that would do.

The current meta takes a particular type of skill - the ability to make a snap shot.

Making ballistics DOT weapons takes away the snap shot, but replaces it with the kind of skill that Sandpit has - the ability to actually AIM for the duration of your shot. You'll have to learn how to hold your aim on target for a full second instead of simply being able to time your trigger pull correctly. One skill goes away, another comes to the fore.

Sniping will still exist. However, jump sniping will no longer be dominant because jump snipers won't be able to do their full burst damage and then instantly drop into cover like they do now. Hill humpers, on the other hand, will still be able to snipe effectively... but they'll be exposed for an extra second while doing so.

[Varent]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

The current meta takes a particular type of skill - the ability to make a snap shot.

Making ballistics DOT weapons takes away the snap shot, but replaces it with the kind of skill that Sandpit has - the ability to actually AIM for the duration of your shot. You'll have to learn how to hold your aim on target for a full second instead of simply being able to time your trigger pull correctly. One skill goes away, another comes to the fore.

Sniping will still exist. However, jump sniping will no longer be dominant because jump snipers won't be able to do their full burst damage and then instantly drop into cover like they do now. Hill humpers, on the other hand, will still be able to snipe effectively... but they'll be exposed for an extra second while doing so.

You could gain the same effect by altering jump jets.

This would still allow for variation in weapon types.

Making weapons beams just would promote high dps play instead of true combat play.

[Hillslam]

And ballistics will still be better than beams because you're still rattling the enemy pilot.

Beams are like "trallala I'm getting shot". Whoopdee.

[Varent]

Hillslam, on 03 January 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

And ballistics will still be better than beams because you're still rattling the enemy pilot.

Beams are like "trallala I'm getting shot". Whoopdee.

ya ya we know we know...

Heat.. blindness.. etcetc... another thread.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hillslam, on 03 January 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

And ballistics will still be better than beams because you're still rattling the enemy pilot.

Beams are like "trallala I'm getting shot". Whoopdee.

No impact, no concussion, no shake. I understand why you want it, but the idea of a beam of light making a car shudder like being hit by a bullet just doesn't make sense.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

No impact, no concussion, no shake. I understand why you want it, but the idea of a beam of light making a car shudder like being hit by a bullet just doesn't make sense.

But 100-ton giant stompy robots firing weapons that would get laughed off a modern battlefield due to their limited range do? 1500 meters is considered point blank range in an Abrams.

There's one other downside to lasers that no one has mentioned - they instantly reveal the exact location of the shooter. Even PPCs don't give away the shooter's location as accurately as lasers.

Part of what makes ballistics so good is that you can sometimes get off 3-4 shots while sniping before anyone can figure out where you are, especially if you're jump sniping. Can you imagine the tears if a Jager or K2 could mount ECM so as to be invisible on radar while sniping with twin Gauss while hull down?

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

But 100-ton giant stompy robots firing weapons that would get laughed off a modern battlefield due to their limited range do? 1500 meters is considered point blank range in an Abrams.

There's one other downside to lasers that no one has mentioned - they instantly reveal the exact location of the shooter. Even PPCs don't give away the shooter's location as accurately as lasers.

Part of what makes ballistics so good is that you can sometimes get off 3-4 shots while sniping before anyone can figure out where you are, especially if you're jump sniping. Can you imagine the tears if a Jager or K2 could mount ECM so as to be invisible on radar while sniping with twin Gauss while hull down?

The punch of a 5 year old has some impact even vs my 280 lbs! I know what you are saying (I think). There is a long standing joke among some CBT Players that all ballistic weapons have safety chutes like rag racers, and many of us have evil minions(C) cutting them off with scissors.

[Roadkill]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

You could gain the same effect by altering jump jets.

This would still allow for variation in weapon types.

Making weapons beams just would promote high dps play instead of true combat play.

They've already tried that, though, and it didn't work.

I'm all for weapon variation. I like the current Gauss mechanic because it makes the weapon different. It's just clear to me that ballistics are easily the best weapons right now for a variety of reasons.

Honestly, I like where ballistics are right now. If I had my druthers, I'd boost lasers in some way to make them a little more competitive. Not a lot... but since ballistics got an ammo boost one of their few detractions no longer applies. It might be as simple as fixing the heat mechanic as so many people have suggested - reduce capacity and increase dissipation.

But as you've suggested, we really should have somewhere to test this stuff out before it goes live. Maybe PGI should have a public test server or something where they try various balance fixes to see what happens. /sigh

[Mcgral18]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

They've already tried that, though, and it didn't work.

Well, perhaps if they actually did something with heat and JJs, rather than just a set number it will never go over. Decreasing the effectiveness of a single JJ could help, since you would then have to sacrifice more tonnage to effectively Poptart.

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 January 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Varent]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

But as you've suggested, we really should have somewhere to test this stuff out before it goes live. Maybe PGI should have a public test server or something where they try various balance fixes to see what happens. /sigh

This.

Also... I dont remember them changing ujump mechanics... or are you reffering to the cockpit shake on the way up wich was a very poor change?

I have suggested this myself.

http://mwomercs.com/...-one-easy-step/

[Myomes]

A slight blinding effect to a cockpit hit, but no blinding effect for flamers and ACs and lasers hitting your CT or lower... like MWO LOVES to have in it.

[Sandpit]

When jjs are engaged
Lock arms
Stop convergence
Until mech touches down again

[Roadkill]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

When jjs are engaged
Lock arms
Stop convergence
Until mech touches down again

That's a start, but I don't think it does the trick. Too many Mechs can carry multiple PPCs in a single location, which negates both of your proposed corrective actions.

How about center (and lock) the torso while in the air?

[Roadkill]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

This.

Also... I dont remember them changing ujump mechanics... or are you reffering to the cockpit shake on the way up wich was a very poor change?

I have suggested this myself.

http://mwomercs.com/...-one-easy-step/

Yeah, I was referring to their cockpit shake "fix" that didn't work.

I'm not sure that shake is the answer, even as you proposed in your link. Some people seem to be able to aim even while their cockpit is shaking.

[Sandpit]

Hmm
Torso lock while in the air would be interesting.

[Varent]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yeah, I was referring to their cockpit shake "fix" that didn't work.

I'm not sure that shake is the answer, even as you proposed in your link. Some people seem to be able to aim even while their cockpit is shaking.

Its because of the mechanic they are using doesnt really shake where your aiming. It needs to truly through the aim off not just give the appearance of it. That said I also have been exploring the idea of maybe them making jump jets heavier and bulkier in general. Thoughts? I know its not canon but one jump jet seems to provide a hell of alot of mobility...

Edited by Varent, 03 January 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Hmm
Torso lock while in the air would be interesting.

If people get mad, you could even add fluff saying if you moved it would put your mech off balance and crash cockpit first into the ground.

LL made if so you stayed at your apex for a solid 2-3 seconds, going up, slowing down, stopping then starting to fall with much more powerful jump jets, so while you could poptart effectively enough, you were fully exposed to return fire for a longer window than would be advisable.

[Sandpit]

Variable thrust maybe?

JJs don't start with 100% thrust which means to get a bigger mech up you have to hold it down longer meaning once you've hit your optimal height you've used so much thrust it carries you higher

This is all said as someone who sees nothing wrong with poptarting

[Roadkill]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

That said I also have been exploring the idea of maybe them making jump jets heavier and bulkier in general. Thoughts? I know its not canon but one jump jet seems to provide a hell of alot of mobility...

That's what JJ are supposed to do, at least to me. Mobility is their purpose.

It's this layered-on ability to turn your Mech into an AeroMech that's broken.

Something that I've been thinking is that JJ recharge should be MUCH slower. Like, say, 10 seconds to fully recharge from 0%. That would make for less Unreal Tournament bunny-hopping and would also make multiples necessary for the best maneuverability. Sure, you could still climb a mountain with 1 JJ, but since you'd have to recharge for 10 seconds after each 5-meter jump it would take a lot longer.

Coincidentally, it'd also slow down jump snipers. They'd still be able to do it, but at a much slower pace than current.

[Varent]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

That's what JJ are supposed to do, at least to me. Mobility is their purpose.

It's this layered-on ability to turn your Mech into an AeroMech that's broken.

Something that I've been thinking is that JJ recharge should be MUCH slower. Like, say, 10 seconds to fully recharge from 0%. That would make for less Unreal Tournament bunny-hopping and would also make multiples necessary for the best maneuverability. Sure, you could still climb a mountain with 1 JJ, but since you'd have to recharge for 10 seconds after each 5-meter jump it would take a lot longer.

Coincidentally, it'd also slow down jump snipers. They'd still be able to do it, but at a much slower pace than current.

Nice idea.