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Ballistics Bettering Beams


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#261 Varent

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:12 PM

View PostNoesis, on 05 January 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:


Not if the problem is seen as an advantage with those weapons in the first place. Remeber this is to correct a problem with the ballistic weapon effectiveness. So if you make those changes indirect it makes other weapons even more effective also against lights, ergo, exacerbating the issue by making things even more imbalanced for other things. So how do you counteract that imbalance since Lasers, SRMS, LRMs would all be more capable as well as other Mechs being able to Persue lights at the same time. And reducing their capability to gain battlefield awareness which is their primary role in the game.

The negatives would outweigh the positives for that change to lights and would not be any presumptive correction at all.


Oh I dont think so, It would actually help the game have more of a realistic feel and counteract the flawed system. Its an obvious exploit just as much as twitch shooting is (that you seem to detest so much) It therefore must be remedied to make the game have a more realistic feel.

#262 Noesis

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:14 PM

View PostVarent, on 05 January 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:


Oh I dont think so, It would actually help the game have more of a realistic feel and counteract the flawed system. Its an obvious exploit just as much as twitch shooting is (that you seem to detest so much) It therefore must be remedied to make the game have a more realistic feel.


What that lights go fast and are therefore harder to hit as they are more mobile as opposed to something standing still. Seems realistic to me.

#263 Varent

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:15 PM

View PostNoesis, on 05 January 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:


What that lights go fast and are therefore harder to hit as they are more mobile as opposed to something standing still. Seems realistic to me.


ahh but its not realistic in the TT sense. Since we are working towards that using the concepts of TT we should obviously change this.

#264 Noesis

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:23 PM

View PostVarent, on 05 January 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:


ahh but its not realistic in the TT sense. Since we are working towards that using the concepts of TT we should obviously change this.


I've just said they reduced the TT values already, in theory lights have the capability to be faster from a TT perspective. And TT has modifications to hit that making it harder to hit for more mobile Mechs and if you yourself are more mobile.

All of this irrelevant anyhow as we are making an FPS simulation. But you wanted to argue this one from a perspective that TT was relevant so I confirmed that values have already been changed to reflect this and presumably been considered otherwise we should be boosting light speed capabilities if you want to be pedantic about TT values.

The corrective measures then needing to be applied to ballistic weapons fire effectiveness as this has beam shown that the FPS MWO interpretation from TT mechanics is in fact better or more powerful by comparison with other weapon types.

So your actually wrong on both sides of the TT debate.

#265 Dock Steward

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:24 PM

View PostNoesis, on 05 January 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:


I've just said they reduced the TT values already, in theory lights have the capability to be faster from a TT perspective. And TT has modifications to hit that making it harder to hit for more mobile Mechs and if you yourself are more mobile.

All of this irrelevant anyhow as we are making an FPS simulation. But you wanted to argue this one from a perspective that TT was relevant so I confirmed that values have already been changed to reflect this and presumably been considered otherwise we should be boosting light speed capabilities if you want to be pedantic about TT values.

The corrective measures then needing to be applied to ballistic weapons fire effectiveness as this has beam shown that the FPS MWO interpretation from TT mechanics is in fact better or more powerful by comparison with other weapon types.

So your actually wrong on both sides of the TT debate.


You're walking into it, in 3, 2, 1...

#266 Varent

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:28 PM

View PostNoesis, on 05 January 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:


I've just said they reduced the TT values already, in theory lights have the capability to be faster from a TT perspective. And TT has modifications to hit that making it harder to hit for more mobile Mechs and if you yourself are more mobile.

All of this irrelevant anyhow as we are making an FPS simulation. But you wanted to argue this one from a perspective that TT was relevant so I confirmed that values have already been changed to reflect this and presumably been considered otherwise we should be boosting light speed capabilities if you want to be pedantic about TT values.

The corrective measures then needing to be applied to ballistic weapons fire effectiveness as this has beam shown that the FPS MWO interpretation from TT mechanics is in fact better or more powerful by comparison with other weapon types.

So your actually wrong on both sides of the TT debate.


actually the primary argument here is how a twitch mechanic players use effect the game and since its 'abused' we must therefore nerf any weapons wich have a high alpha potential

By those same ideals we also must change the game to overcome concepts wich players use in a shooter wich are overwhelmingly powerful. Such as using speed mechanics the game has implimented wich prevent players from hitting them. We should definetly use the basic speeds that are incoporated into TT . It only makes sense.

BTW - I really cant believe you have let this ridiculous argument go on for this long since both of these ideas will be the downfall of the game?

People dont want to play a game like that over a large player base. They want a shooter.

#267 Noesis

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:34 PM

"Oh god the sky is falling, PGI might tweak ballistic fire down a little bit to help the game but still keep them fun and useful:

Posted Image

Oh gosh I'm so afraid, I don't not what I will do, the world will collapse around me."

#268 Varent

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:36 PM

View PostNoesis, on 05 January 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

"Oh god the sky is falling, PGI might tweak ballistic fire down a little bit to help the game but still keep them fun and useful:

Posted Image

Oh gosh I'm so afraid, I don't not what I will do, the world will collapse around me."


If they make it not a fps your going to lose a large portion of your playerbase.

interpret that how you will towards the survival of a company.

#269 Slambot

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 09:58 PM

Cimbarb for pres.... The problem with the game is the insane throughput of pinpoint damage weapons. There are builds out there (2xPPC + AC/20) that can kill 70 ton mechs with one shot. When this is possible, you really no longer care what your opponent has too much. As long as the 30-40 point pinpoint alpha exists the game will be pretty much assault mech poptarts ruling the field.

#270 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:42 PM

View PostVarent, on 05 January 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:


ahh but its not realistic in the TT sense. Since we are working towards that using the concepts of TT we should obviously change this.

Maybe I am missing something because I stopped reading the thread to fix some source code, but in TT, there are to-hit penalties for the target's speed.

Lag Shields are not canon, though.

#271 Varent

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:57 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 05 January 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Maybe I am missing something because I stopped reading the thread to fix some source code, but in TT, there are to-hit penalties for the target's speed.

Lag Shields are not canon, though.


It was to make a point, ignore it.

#272 Myomes

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:38 AM

Lights already have it too easy, neosis. The aiming system is a clunker compared to MW3 so snapshots and good aim are really hard to pull off at high speeds, meaning lights are practically unhittable if they don't run straight to you.

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 05 January 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Maybe I am missing something because I stopped reading the thread to fix some source code, but in TT, there are to-hit penalties for the target's speed.

Lag Shields are not canon, though.
yes, there are to-hit penalties for moving too fast. I always thought they should add some form of "reticle bounce" to the game that's non-existent below 100kph, and increases exponentially at higher and higher speeds above that. It'd grant a minor boon to those "slow" striker light mechs, by virtue of not having any penalties when attacking, while dealing with speed mechs. If you want to go supersonic, at least pay for it.

Edited by Myomes, 06 January 2014 - 12:42 AM.


#273 Varent

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:56 AM

View PostMyomes, on 06 January 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

Lights already have it too easy, neosis. The aiming system is a clunker compared to MW3 so snapshots and good aim are really hard to pull off at high speeds, meaning lights are practically unhittable if they don't run straight to you.
yes, there are to-hit penalties for moving too fast. I always thought they should add some form of "reticle bounce" to the game that's non-existent below 100kph, and increases exponentially at higher and higher speeds above that. It'd grant a minor boon to those "slow" striker light mechs, by virtue of not having any penalties when attacking, while dealing with speed mechs. If you want to go supersonic, at least pay for it.


Excellent point, I like it.

#274 Craig Steele

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:09 AM

scratch that :ph34r:

Edited by Craig Steele, 06 January 2014 - 01:10 AM.


#275 Noesis

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:11 AM

View PostMyomes, on 06 January 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

Lights already have it too easy, neosis. The aiming system is a clunker compared to MW3 so snapshots and good aim are really hard to pull off at high speeds, meaning lights are practically unhittable if they don't run straight to you.

yes, there are to-hit penalties for moving too fast. I always thought they should add some form of "reticle bounce" to the game that's non-existent below 100kph, and increases exponentially at higher and higher speeds above that.


Except that is already apparent in the game, it is harder to aim at higher speeds especially when considering terrain also. Standing still you have no problems associated with movement. So the faster you go the harder it is to hit with your own weapons anyhow. More so for lights who have to deal with closer range weapons and more obtuse angles with their use as result, so mobility actually effects them more. Are you going to correct that also in a relative way for FPS mechanics? Oh wait lasers and beam time, maybe if we shortened that it would solve that issue. I'm sure someone suggested this before.

Assaults have much heavier armour as a result of their lack of speed. And in the case of MWO have been increased on a relative basis based on the new apportioned mechanics for weapons fire. Likewise lights have already had a speed nerf to associate themselves with what PGI believe are the best mechanics for them. As such I'm not arguing that speed gives them defense this since they have the least armour and use speed as their defense.

Changes to ballistic mechanics then effecting things similarly on a "relative" basis. As other classes equally will be marginally harder to hit if they also can be mobile so on a "relative" basis they also receive these benefits. Faster mediums and heavies will compensate more on their defense as a result. Which for the medium and considering it size is pretty much needed. And these are another class with engine restrictions. So other classes will benefit from this process.

However if you simply nerf lights speed then all the other weapon classes will be much more effective against them as well and as a result over compensate the reduction to ballistics effectiveness that is needed for them as part of a process to correct any imbalance.

So if they are singled out in this way will you be suggesting a specific armour increase to give a relative capability with defense for the apparent easier to hit process as a result of nerfing their speed defense? If you want to be able to hit better and make all other weapons do so at the same time as a result to correct relative issues with ballistics. Then you will need to compensate for the light shifting on the armour scale with increases so that it doesn't lose it's defensive capabilities.

You can also see that with any subtle shift like this it helps to raise the awareness of having to use backup weapons or shorter weapons more designed for handling lights. And as such with ballistics and their better range would be more practical to use at range. That and also considering that you might need to use platforms like lights or mediums to help with the interplay between them and suddenly roles have more importance and the assault using ballistics fire is not the one platform fit for every purpose. So there are even greater intrinsic benefits for applying these changes and keeping other things the way they are.

And sorry I don't buy into the scare mongering as these changes can be subtle and only marginally increase the skill process with it as a result. Which for me in an FPS game is also beneficial when other weapons already have a mechanic that requires more aiming to utilise them well.

But it is nice to see that those who don't want to see any nerf to ballistics at all and keep their dominance see that the effects will reduce ballistic effectiveness which is the whole idea of this process in trying to allow other meta to be more prominent and more viable as a choice. The way I see this approach is your effectively saying that your happy to reduce ballistic effectiveness to be on a par with other weapon types, something that should happen anyway, oh but the trade off is we want to be able to kill lights better as a result. Thus reducing the very epitome of abilities actually required for another role and creating further imbalances in the process. How is that helping to encourage diversity? Answer it isn't.

#276 Varent

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:15 AM

Its actually not very hard at all to aim at those higher speeds, especially when you can stop on a dime and perfectly get in position then speed up like its nothing. Considering your grand campaigns for balance why would you overlook something like that? Unless of course all of this is just a viel for your push towards light pilots since your proposed changes would heavily benefit them.

#277 Craig Steele

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:16 AM

Hey someone said it elsewhere but the discussion seems to come around in another thread.

Isn't an easy solution to the meta "one shot" pin point front loaded damage sniper thing to simply up the armour to a point where the weapon config simply cannot breach.

He had some science and came out with a 2.5 x number.

Apart from longer games and more movement around the map, I don't see a downside. Anyone got one?

#278 stjobe

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:19 AM

View PostVarent, on 05 January 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:


Your right, we should also take out much of the miss chance that speed offers in this game. Make it easier for everything to land. That would mean all the light mechs should obviously travel at the speeds in table top too. Its only fair. We definetly have to make it more like TT right? :ph34r:

Speed offers quite the advantage in TT:

Attacker Movement
Stationary...None
Walked.......+1
Ran..........+2
Jumped.......+3
Prone........+2

Target Movement
Moved 0-2 hexes....0
Moved 3-4 hexes...+1
Moved 5-6 hexes...+2
Moved 7-9 hexes...+3
Moved 10+ hexes...+4
Jumped............+1 additional

Edit: Ergo, it's harder to hit something while moving, and harder to hit it the faster the target is moving. Just like in MWO.

Edited by stjobe, 06 January 2014 - 01:57 AM.


#279 Noesis

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:19 AM

View PostVarent, on 06 January 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

Its actually not very hard at all to aim at those higher speeds, especially when you can stop on a dime and perfectly get in position then speed up like its nothing. Considering your grand campaigns for balance why would you overlook something like that? Unless of course all of this is just a viel for your push towards light pilots since your proposed changes would heavily benefit them.


Oh no, lights who stop on a dime give a perfect opportunity for larger Mechs to simply take them out. My advice to any light pilot is never stop moving and always shoot on the move, the very idea of these less damage potential Mechs with less armour is that you use hit an run tactics over time, you stand still or over heat, might as well place your head between your legs and kiss your "Kabosse" goodbye.

#280 Craig Steele

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:21 AM

Noesis probably saw what I did which was half the original post was missing. It initially read as

[color=#959595]Lights already have it too easy, neosis. The aiming system is a clunker compared to MW3 so snapshots and good aim are really hard to pull off at high speeds, meaning lights are practically unhittable if they don't run straight to you.[/color]

And On that basis I too thought no way, poor lights. But when I refreshed the focus of the post was on the aiming by the light pilot, not aiming at the light mech :ph34r:





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