675 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

DrxAbstract, on 09 January 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

Only for the first 2/3rd health of the Mech. The last 1/3rd is the time at which you can focus specific parts... the Health % readout will actually be accurate and useful! An RPG this would make not.

Anyway, i didnt say this is what i wanted, but it would definitely make the game more newbie friendly, eliminate most of the standing game play issues and maintain most of the current preferred game dynamics. Just because i presented an idea doesnt mean i like or want it - kind of the point behind having an unbiased discussion.

Actuall I like picking on the R/L shoulder right away as I wanna cut off arms and to do that I need to hit that arm beginning when it has armor, so still no n the HP pool.

And I do get it. I support/suggest ending Pop Tarting only cause it wasn't a mechanic on TT, and did not have a huge impact in Canon stories. Other than that if someone wants to be a Clay Pigeon for me I am fine with that!

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

I feel im pretty frank and foreward, I make no apologies there. That said I truly do hope most things I say are taken with a grain of salt since I do passionatly enjoy this franchise and want to see it prosper just as much as anyone else.



I actually like you quite abit Joseph, you amuse me and I like your attitude. Even if I think you are abit of a nut

Only a Bit? I am almost a 48 year old man who is sill playing RPGs and video games! I am a total nut!

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Only a Bit? I am almost a 48 year old man who is sill playing RPGs and video games! I am a total nut!

Ill be there some day *hat tip*

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Actuall I like picking on the R/L shoulder right away as I wanna cut off arms and to do that I need to hit that arm beginning when it has armor, so still no n the HP pool.

And I do get it. I support/suggest ending Pop Tarting only cause it wasn't a mechanic on TT, and did not have a huge impact in Canon stories. Other than that if someone wants to be a Clay Pigeon for me I am fine with that!


Only a Bit? I am almost a 48 year old man who is sill playing RPGs and video games! I am a total nut!

A mere youth Joe - I'm in my 60's and been PC gaming since it was text on green screens
Started tabletop gaming at the end of the 50's. just young enough to remember (sort of) the 60's.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 09 January 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

A mere youth Joe - I'm in my 60's and been PC gaming since it was text on green screens
Started tabletop gaming at the end of the 50's. just young enough to remember (sort of) the 60's.

I bow before or seniority! I did play Oregon Trail on a computer in Elementary. I won the game but arrived naked an devoid of food!

[Noesis]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I work in admin mostly these days.

Suddenly the idea of a Judge Dredd style legal system becomes more viable again.

[Sandpit]

DrxAbstract, on 09 January 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

Get rid of individual armor sections, give Mechs a flat HP pool comprised of both their total external and internal armor.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 09 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Suddenly the idea of a Judge Dredd style legal system becomes more viable again.

*revealing* my favorite comic strip was the punisher.
I would love the Judge Dredd Legal system. Admitedly however I am abit jaded and I work in a high high crime area.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Oh Dear!

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 January 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

And I do get it. I support/suggest ending Pop Tarting only cause it wasn't a mechanic on TT, and did not have a huge impact in Canon stories. Other than that if someone wants to be a Clay Pigeon for me I am fine with that!

You can't base everything on your interpretation of TT mechanics, as this isn't TT and that's not how I read the rules working anyways. You could use jump jets in TT, and you could also fire your weapons during the same turn and even had JJ penalties to that weapon fire. Therefore, it all happened at the same relative time in a 10-second period and is "canon".

While jump jets did not have a huge impact in canon, it is mostly because the mechs they rode were almost always land-based ones. I actually can't think of a single book that was based on a pilot of a JJ mech - maybe the Highlanders princess that drove a Hatchetman?

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

While jump jets did not have a huge impact in canon, it is mostly because the mechs they rode were almost always land-based ones. I actually can't think of a single book that was based on a pilot of a JJ mech - maybe the Highlanders princess that drove a Hatchetman?

Top of my head? Aidan Pryde often used jump capable mechs. Also I believe one of the captains for the Grey Death Legion, the scottish one that drove a highlander. (name escapes me and im not gonna look it up)

[Sandpit]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

You can't base everything on your interpretation of TT mechanics, as this isn't TT and that's not how I read the rules working anyways. You could use jump jets in TT, and you could also fire your weapons during the same turn and even had JJ penalties to that weapon fire. Therefore, it all happened at the same relative time in a 10-second period and is "canon".

While jump jets did not have a huge impact in canon, it is mostly because the mechs they rode were almost always land-based ones. I actually can't think of a single book that was based on a pilot of a JJ mech - maybe the Highlanders princess that drove a Hatchetman?

Victor Steiner?

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Victor Steiner?

I feel like a noob for frogetting that one....

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

You can't base everything on your interpretation of TT mechanics, as this isn't TT and that's not how I read the rules working anyways. You could use jump jets in TT, and you could also fire your weapons during the same turn and even had JJ penalties to that weapon fire. Therefore, it all happened at the same relative time in a 10-second period and is "canon".

And all ranges and terrain Mods were calculated from the hex you landed in. So that means there was no firing in flight. If they wanted to do something to simulate Firing while in air, they could have adapted the ground force firing on a AeroSpace fighter rules. You are correct The game cannot be based solely on TT rules, but that does not mean that they HAVE to be ignored either.

Simple handle the problem with Hand wavium, As a safety feature a Mechs targeting and fire mechanisms are deactivated while jumping so as to not distract a pilot from balancing the Mechs flight though his/her neurohelmet.


While jump jets did not have a huge impact in canon, it is mostly because the mechs they rode were almost always land-based ones. I actually can't think of a single book that was based on a pilot of a JJ mech - maybe the Highlanders princess that drove a Hatchetman?

[Sandpit]

I still firmly believe that if you increase JJ heat to match more closely heat from TT you'd solve the issue you guys are talking about.
It still allows JJs to be used by mechs for increased mobility but you can't just jump up and down pogo styel non-stop with impunity. You'd still be able to poptart but you would have to either adjust the speed at which you did so effectively reducing the RoF for poptarting, or you would have to make trade-offs for more heat sinks to help mitigate the heat.
Since most run DHS that becomes a huge issue. 3 critical slots become a big deal when dealing with ammo and ACs.
PPCs are not cost-effective to run like this because of heat.

Light mechs typically running smaller weapons would stil be able to defend themselves while using JJs to harass or get out of trouble but it would mitigate poptarting.

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

I still firmly believe that if you increase JJ heat to match more closely heat from TT you'd solve the issue you guys are talking about.
It still allows JJs to be used by mechs for increased mobility but you can't just jump up and down pogo styel non-stop with impunity. You'd still be able to poptart but you would have to either adjust the speed at which you did so effectively reducing the RoF for poptarting, or you would have to make trade-offs for more heat sinks to help mitigate the heat.
Since most run DHS that becomes a huge issue. 3 critical slots become a big deal when dealing with ammo and ACs.
PPCs are not cost-effective to run like this because of heat.

Light mechs typically running smaller weapons would stil be able to defend themselves while using JJs to harass or get out of trouble but it would mitigate poptarting.

Its a good idea in theory, But I think alot of the more elite units would just keep circling the map and staying mobile while continuing to jump snipe, so it wouldnt actually change much and just would make the game more stagnant.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Top of my head? Aidan Pryde often used jump capable mechs. Also I believe one of the captains for the Grey Death Legion, the scottish one that drove a highlander. (name escapes me and im not gonna look it up)

I don't think I have read those books a second time, as I mentioned I lost a bit of interest during that time period, so sorry I forgot what mechs he piloted - did he use them a lot while fighting?

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Victor Steiner?

The Victor can jump, but I don't remember him using them. He piloted a Daishi most of his life, and I know that can't jump over a tree stump, lol.

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

I still firmly believe that if you increase JJ heat to match more closely heat from TT you'd solve the issue you guys are talking about.
It still allows JJs to be used by mechs for increased mobility but you can't just jump up and down pogo styel non-stop with impunity. You'd still be able to poptart but you would have to either adjust the speed at which you did so effectively reducing the RoF for poptarting, or you would have to make trade-offs for more heat sinks to help mitigate the heat.
Since most run DHS that becomes a huge issue. 3 critical slots become a big deal when dealing with ammo and ACs.
PPCs are not cost-effective to run like this because of heat.

Light mechs typically running smaller weapons would stil be able to defend themselves while using JJs to harass or get out of trouble but it would mitigate poptarting.

I am all for that - make it so, Sandy!

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Its a good idea in theory, But I think alot of the more elite units would just keep circling the map and staying mobile while continuing to jump snipe, so it wouldnt actually change much and just would make the game more stagnant.

Are you going to find a reason against everything just to be against it?

Edited by Cimarb, 09 January 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

I don't think I have read those books a second time, as I mentioned I lost a bit of interest during that time period, so sorry I forgot what mechs he piloted - did he use them a lot while fighting?


The Victor can jump, but I don't remember him using them. He piloted a Daishi most of his life, and I know that can't jump over a tree stump, lol.

Are you going to find a reason against everything just to be against it?

1. Aiden Pryde most certainly used them while fighting. In fact in the jade falcon trilogy there was alot of description of the tactics utilized with jump jets in general.

2. I think theres a jump capable Daishi.... I have to look into that.

3. I thought I was pointing out a valuable point? Im not against it, im simply showing a way that it can be exploited and worked around. I believe the term is "playing devils advocate". I do jump snipe now and then so this is how I personally would defeat that. I also have seen many teams utilize this strategy in general to avoid brawlers while using the ridgline now and then to continuously punish them.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

1. Aiden Pryde most certainly used them while fighting. In fact in the jade falcon trilogy there was alot of description of the tactics utilized with jump jets in general.

2. I think theres a jump capable Daishi.... I have to look into that.

3. I thought I was pointing out a valuable point? Im not against it, im simply showing a way that it can be exploited and worked around. I believe the term is "playing devils advocate". I do jump snipe now and then so this is how I personally would defeat that. I also have seen many teams utilize this strategy in general to avoid brawlers while using the ridgline now and then to continuously punish them.

You are thinking of Alt Config S, which has jump jets. 1/10 variants has them, but I submit to the correction anyways. I think it's interesting that the flavor text says "primary weapon is a massive LB-X Autocannon/20 which is capable of disabling most light and medium mechs in a single blast." I know its flavor text, but the LBX in MWO is most definitely not known for that type of damage potential, even if it is a class-20 version...

So, with Aiden and all those described tactics, did he ever shoot while in the air?

(I know I'm out of order, sorry). Lastly, everything can be exploited, so when you play devils advocate for every single thing brought up, it seems like you are trolling instead of contributing. I understand you aren't, but it seems that way. We know there are ways around it, but changing tactics is a valid way to avoid other tactics - it has nothing to do with the validity of the suggested change if the intended result is met, which is to lessen the advantage of firing alphas while using JJs. Increasing the heat generation of using JJs does that, so I am for it.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Its a good idea in theory, But I think alot of the more elite units would just keep circling the map and staying mobile while continuing to jump snipe, so it wouldnt actually change much and just would make the game more stagnant.

I agree but that helps mitigate it. It's more attune to actual sniping. Shoot, move positions, and in this case cool off, shoot. It prevents just constant pop up shoot pop up shoot

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

I don't think I have read those books a second time, as I mentioned I lost a bit of interest during that time period, so sorry I forgot what mechs he piloted - did he use them a lot while fighting? The Victor can jump, but I don't remember him using them. He piloted a Daishi most of his life, and I know that can't jump over a tree stump, lol. I am all for that - make it so, Sandy! Are you going to find a reason against everything just to be against it?

He piloted a victor early on until he received the Daishi as a gift

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

You are thinking of Alt Config S, which has jump jets. 1/10 variants has them, but I submit to the correction anyways. I think it's interesting that the flavor text says "primary weapon is a massive LB-X Autocannon/20 which is capable of disabling most light and medium mechs in a single blast." I know its flavor text, but the LBX in MWO is most definitely not known for that type of damage potential, even if it is a class-20 version...

So, with Aiden and all those described tactics, did he ever shoot while in the air?

(I know I'm out of order, sorry). Lastly, everything can be exploited, so when you play devils advocate for every single thing brought up, it seems like you are trolling instead of contributing. I understand you aren't, but it seems that way. We know there are ways around it, but changing tactics is a valid way to avoid other tactics - it has nothing to do with the validity of the suggested change if the intended result is met, which is to lessen the advantage of firing alphas while using JJs. Increasing the heat generation of using JJs does that, so I am for it.

I would have to reread the book But I recall specifically him firing while in mid air jumping over a mech and firing down upon them and then starting to core them from behind.

He was then shot and killed from behind (in his mech) but thats besides the point.

Regardless I have had many play devils advocate with my own posts and while originally upset I then go back and try to alter the concept to 'fix' it. Playing devils advocate can help someone if they are willing to work towards a concept and idea and find a way to better an idea. I dont try to shoot down an idea without trying to explain how people might work around it. while increasing heat generation would stop someone from jump sniping repeatedly. It would do nothing to stop what Jump Sniping is or the problems with it. It also Would not in any way resolve any problems that is has in organized 12 mans at high ELO (where it is the most prevalent). I would be against it because it would be like the ghost heat so many complain about, Putting a bandaid over a gaping wound and not resolving the bigger issue.