675 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Elite units by definition are going to do well. That's why they're "elite"

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

I agree but that helps mitigate it. It's more attune to actual sniping. Shoot, move positions, and in this case cool off, shoot. It prevents just constant pop up shoot pop up shoot

He piloted a victor early on until he received the Daishi as a gift

I think the heat idea, especially if it is considerable, is a great fix for the jump sniping issue.

I honestly don't remember the early clan invasion books ever talking about him using the jump jets, though. The battles themselves weren't nearly as descriptive as they should have been, so maybe that's why, but I don't think it ever talked about it. The disposable booster packs for orbital drops were mentioned a few times, but not jump jets.

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I would have to reread the book But I recall specifically him firing while in mid air jumping over a mech and firing down upon them and then starting to core them from behind.

He was then shot and killed from behind (in his mech) but thats besides the point.

Regardless I have had many play devils advocate with my own posts and while originally upset I then go back and try to alter the concept to 'fix' it. Playing devils advocate can help someone if they are willing to work towards a concept and idea and find a way to better an idea. I dont try to shoot down an idea without trying to explain how people might work around it. while increasing heat generation would stop someone from jump sniping repeatedly. It would do nothing to stop what Jump Sniping is or the problems with it. It also Would not in any way resolve any problems that is has in organized 12 mans at high ELO (where it is the most prevalent). I would be against it because it would be like the ghost heat so many complain about, Putting a bandaid over a gaping wound and not resolving the bigger issue.

I do vaguely remember that happening now that you mention it. I read those books when they first came out, so it's been a while, lol...

I play the DA all the time, so I understand, but if you shoot something down, at least try to throw something new back up in its place. The heat suggestion increases the opportunity cost of jump sniping, without completely eliminating it, so I would think you would be all for it based upon your other posts.

I disagree about it being like ghost heat, btw, because adding heat to them is in the canon rules, makes logical sense, and is directly proportional to the existing heat generated simply by walking. It takes no explanation for a new pilot to understand and can generate higher levels of heat based upon size of the mech/jet, so it is scalable and tweakable as well.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

I think the heat idea, especially if it is considerable, is a great fix for the jump sniping issue.

I honestly don't remember the early clan invasion books ever talking about him using the jump jets, though. The battles themselves weren't nearly as descriptive as they should have been, so maybe that's why, but I don't think it ever talked about it. The disposable booster packs for orbital drops were mentioned a few times, but not jump jets.


I do vaguely remember that happening now that you mention it. I read those books when they first came out, so it's been a while, lol...

I play the DA all the time, so I understand, but if you shoot something down, at least try to throw something new back up in its place. The heat suggestion increases the opportunity cost of jump sniping, without completely eliminating it, so I would think you would be all for it based upon your other posts.

I disagree about it being like ghost heat, btw, because adding heat to them is in the canon rules, makes logical sense, and is directly proportional to the existing heat generated simply by walking. It takes no explanation for a new pilot to understand and can generate higher levels of heat based upon size of the mech/jet, so it is scalable and tweakable as well.

Thing is I dont think its something that can be controlled with heat. Heat only goes so far and only prevents you from doing an action 'as much' it doesnt change the action itself in any way, make it harder/easier or in essence alter behavior. It just bogs it down abit more. Elite players are also very very good at managing heat. There is a reason a common saying and group has been put out there. "run hot or die".

while it might be an easy mechanic I dont think its one that will actually fix something. and I have pointed out a few good ideas in alot of other forums regarding weight, screen shake, dysyncing etc etc.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Thing is I dont think its something that can be controlled with heat. Heat only goes so far and only prevents you from doing an action 'as much' it doesnt change the action itself in any way, make it harder/easier or in essence alter behavior. It just bogs it down abit more. Elite players are also very very good at managing heat. There is a reason a common saying and group has been put out there. "run hot or die".

while it might be an easy mechanic I dont think its one that will actually fix something. and I have pointed out a few good ideas in alot of other forums regarding weight, screen shake, dysyncing etc etc.

We already have shake. They already have weight (and a considerable amount at that). I'm not sure what you mean by desyncing.

Really, this is way off topic anyways, so it doesn't matter, and you are just being difficult at this point.

Back on topic: burst-fire ballistics and spread PPCs

[Sandpit]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

We already have shake. They already have weight (and a considerable amount at that). I'm not sure what you mean by desyncing.

Really, this is way off topic anyways, so it doesn't matter, and you are just being difficult at this point.

Back on topic: burst-fire ballistics and spread PPCs

I think be desynciing it's meant that when you fire more than one weapon your convergence is no longer pinpoint

[Wildstreak]

Jump Jets are not a problem for me especially now. Made a Hunchie 4J today, after trying several builds on TG went with a 2LRM10 version. I love the jumpers, it is easier to TAG them in the air as the missiles hit. I believe they contribute to how disturbingly well the 4J is doing.

Even saw 2 battles between Shadow Hawks and Hunchies, one being mine today. Both times the Hunchie won. JJ is not much of an advantage.

[Sandpit]

gone too soon

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

gone too soon

Huh?

(Is there more to this comment? Sometimes my browser doesn't show videos and such, so I might be missing something)

[Cimarb]

Sandpit, on 09 January 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I think be desynciing it's meant that when you fire more than one weapon your convergence is no longer pinpoint

Oh, that makes more sense. I'm not a huge fan of convergence solutions, since they are usually really complicated, but if it is something that makes logical sense to a new player (such as a linear recoil penalty for ballistics and linear system overload penalty for energy, with maybe a combo penalty for mixed systems), I could be behind that, but it can't be like ghost heat...

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 10 January 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Oh, that makes more sense. I'm not a huge fan of convergence solutions, since they are usually really complicated, but if it is something that makes logical sense to a new player (such as a linear recoil penalty for ballistics and linear system overload penalty for energy, with maybe a combo penalty for mixed systems), I could be behind that, but it can't be like ghost heat...

it was an option mentioned. I gave a few pluses and minuses to it. the bottom line is it would only take away a little from jump sniping and would still utterly allow it to occur, not really resolving the issue at all. Wouldnt change mechanics or lessen it whatsoever and on many mechs it would have no effect.

It also would hurt brawlers.

Edited by Varent, 10 January 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[Allen Ward]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 January 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Of course, there is one thing to note - in the table top, things were hardly perfectly balanced. But once Battle Value was devised, you could figure out what was underpowered and what was overpowered and you could tweak stats accordingly (something that wasn't so easy done in the table top game because the designers apparently wanted to retain backward compatibility of the mech record sheets, and of course, if you can't play around with stuff like rate of fire or burst/beam lengths, you have less options to tweak stats, too)

I agree that TT was hardly perfectly balanced. No game ever was or will be. But I think we can agree that BT TT provided years (actually decades) of games that were fun and ranting over some weapon being OP was a minor issue. So I think that it provides a stable and internally balanced system that could have been adapted 1:1 into MWO. But making the AC/2 a DPS monster, introducing ROF rates that make the AC/20 effectively an AC/50 while Armor ratings are being increased between 199 and almost 400% depending on Mech doesn't add to stability and balance, it reduces it. Add the beam length nerf for lasers and the meta-issue of one location Alpha Strikes and you see where you end. Light Mechs with insane amounts of armor on top of their speed shield, Mechs with built in weaknesses improved without any sense (JagerMechs had 96 armor in TT, now they are as tough as all others in their class) and so on.

I am just saying if you use a conversion system from TT to MWO (and PGI did just try that) you should do it consistently and not pepper it with drastic changes that are not even based on long time testing experience. If Jagermechs had something like 96x2.5 armor (about 240) or 93x3.0 (288), no one would call this game AC/40 warrior anymore.

[Khobai]

Custom mechs were extremely unbalanced in Battletech. So its no surprise MWO has all the same problems.

I still maintain that MWO needs a stock mech only gamemode, where you get assigned a random stock mech. Or maybe a scenario gamemode where each team starts with predetermined stock mechs.

[Cimarb]

Khobai, on 14 January 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Custom mechs were extremely unbalanced in Battletech. So its no surprise MWO has all the same problems.

I still maintain that MWO needs a stock mech only gamemode, where you get assigned a random stock mech. Or maybe a scenario gamemode where each team starts with predetermined stock mechs.

On the opposite side of this, I want a more customized way to play. One that encourages me to progress in a single mech or "path" to become the best with that particular loadout. From lore, you don't see pilots jumping around from mech to mech like they are underwear - every pilot had THEIR mech and, even if they were the Prince of their faction, they still used their individual mech. I want that feeling in this game. Let me pick a loadout with a particular mech and get better and better with it, instead of the current "grind" (for lack of a better word) of mastering the mech in a week and then moving on to the next one. Even if it is just cosmetic/fluff bonuses, I would love to be rewarded for focusing on a single "favorite". This could be a boost of some sort based off of how many matches you have played with that exact build. As an example, maybe have the targeting information show your mechs customized name after 100+ matches unchanged.

You can play with your random stock mech, and I can play with my iconic war machine.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 14 January 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Custom mechs were extremely unbalanced in Battletech. So its no surprise MWO has all the same problems.

I still maintain that MWO needs a stock mech only gamemode, where you get assigned a random stock mech. Or maybe a scenario gamemode where each team starts with predetermined stock mechs.

Custom Mechs were extremely unbalanced against Stock (with a few exceptions). SO if a GM wanted t have a air fight he allowed all players to have the mods they wanted so the only result was "You didn't win." No excuses.

[Khobai]

Quote

Custom Mechs were extremely unbalanced against Stock (with a few exceptions).

Custom mechs were unbalanced because only three weapons were worth using in custom fights: gauss, ppc,and medium laser. Gauss because it was the best overall weapon, PPC because it was the best option when you were running low on tonnage, and Medium Lasers so your mech wasnt defenseless if an enemy got inside the minimum range of the Gauss and PPC.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Custom mechs were unbalanced because only three weapons were worth using in custom fights: gauss, ppc,and medium laser. Gauss because it was the best overall weapon, PPC because it was the best option when you were running low on tonnage, and Medium Lasers so your mech wasnt defenseless if an enemy got inside the minimum range of the Gauss and PPC.

I would argue that I could build a 3025 tech Rifleman that would mop up any stock 3025 Heavy and I would not change a more than 2 weapons. No PPC no Gauss.

[Roadkill]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Custom mechs were unbalanced because only three weapons were worth using in custom fights: gauss, ppc,and medium laser. Gauss because it was the best overall weapon, PPC because it was the best option when you were running low on tonnage, and Medium Lasers so your mech wasnt defenseless if an enemy got inside the minimum range of the Gauss and PPC.

Medium Pulse Lasers with a Targeting Computer. BV is ridiculously low.

Light enough that I have the speed to close, and I'll likely be closing with a speed of at least 8. Range 12 is effectively "short" range. Anything closer than that allows me to use called shots pretty much at will.

[Almond Brown]

Sandpit, on 06 January 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

I see where you're coming from but in TT JJs also allowed a lot more movement with them. You couldn't fire while in the air in TT because by it's very nature you had to have movement done. All of these things were happening simultaneously but it was impossible to do by the very nature of being turn-based.

And I would be in full agreement with any proposal that removed weapons fire while in the air and then adding, even much more maneuverability, to the Jump capable Mechs.

What appears to be want ed though, is the extra maneuverability without a draw back.

Khobai, on 06 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

You can fire after jumping in TT its just a +3 penalty. Dunno where people get this nonsense.

I guess you will have to explain to us dumb-***** exactly what "after jumping in TT" actually means then...

[Khobai]

Quote

I guess you will have to explain to us dumb-***** exactly what "after jumping in TT" actually means then...

Tabletop is divided upto into phases. You have a movement phase and a weapon phase.

You use jumpjets during your movement phase but fire your weapons during the weapon phase. But the real time translation of that would be firing your weapons while jumping. Battlemechs fire while jumping all the time in the fiction.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 15 January 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Tabletop is divided upto into phases. You have a movement phase and a weapon phase.

You use jumpjets during your movement phase but fire your weapons during the weapon phase. But the real time translation of that would be firing your weapons while jumping. Battlemechs fire while jumping all the time in the fiction.

I only remember 1 pilot who fired in mid jump. Name me two more please.