675 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

No, big XL engine, lots of weapons and a smart player with a pinpoint alpha will win every time, unless you also have a pinpoint weapon to take their XL out. If SRMs were 2.5 and with better registration, they might work.

As it is, boating some lasers and ACs/AC20 is the best option for optimal aimable weapon alpha. Cataphracts can be very fearsome with a STD engine. My Shaqs can stick to boating AC2s. The Dakka outweights the fact they aren't optimal.

Again, don't brawl in a build like that. Those weapons aren't meant to go toe to toe with mechs that ARE built to brawl.....
I don't know how else to explain that
My 5ll stalker and 5-7ll bmasters destroy your notions that other weapons can't compete with ballistics

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Oh, I've gotten over 900 quite a few times. That damage spread all over your target, doing nothing.

Arn't SRMs to be good at brawling? They are suboptimal with current ballistic implementation.

No they are NOT meant to be good at brawling that's your issue

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 01 January 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

Again, don't brawl in a build like that. Those weapons aren't meant to go toe to toe with mechs that ARE built to brawl.....
I don't know how else to explain that
My 5ll stalker and 5-7ll bmasters destroy your notions that other weapons can't compete with ballistics


No they are NOT meant to be good at brawling that's your issue

Then, what point do SRMs have in this game? To buff damage scores?

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Oh, I've gotten over 900 quite a few times. That damage spread all over your target, doing nothing.

Arn't SRMs to be good at brawling? They are suboptimal with current ballistic implementation.

I would say SRMS ARE good at brawling myself. Think my post proves that.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Then, what point do SRMs have in this game? To buff damage scores?

Reread my previous post, not in the mood to retype it all

Also as Varent showed

I'm willing to bet he didn't just stroll out straight ahead and singly take on a ballistics mech brawler build either because he's smart enough to know there are 11 teammates to help him.
I take out ballistics mechs all the time in my energy boats. I also understand that to do so I can't just plow headlong into that brawler build and dakka with him.
I use my range and the fact that I have a steady and continous stream of damage.
I also don't step out and make myself the most prominent target. I stand with teammates soaking damage until I need to back out for a bit.
I let them forget about me for a few seconds and then remind them I'm still there
Keep in mind I'm not picking on you, I honestly just think you will have more success if you adjust your tactics a bit in that type of build
Also keep in mind that when I talk about soaking damage I'm doing THAT in a fully armored stalker or bmasters
I don't play the same in my Shawk or tbolt or ravens

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 01 January 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

I would say SRMS ARE good at brawling myself. Think my post proves that.

If you have the tonnage and hardpoints, they can hurt. Although in almost all cases, you'd get an AC or a laser to actually aim where you want the damage to go.

My Shaq has 2 SRM6 and 1 SRM4, 3 MGs and a LL, while decent, I feel the BJ1 with AC20 and 3 MLs works much better in a brawl, even with less armor (although being much smaller might help a fair bit.) Being able to aim a 35 pt alpha is better than not being able to aim the majority of a 56 pt alpha, from my experience.

SRM hit detection on lights is also rather mediocre.

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 01 January 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

Reread my previous post, not in the mood to retype it all

Also as Varent showed

I'm willing to bet he didn't just stroll out straight ahead and singly take on a ballistics mech brawler build either because he's smart enough to know there are 11 teammates to help him.
I take out ballistics mechs all the time in my energy boats. I also understand that to do so I can't just plow headlong into that brawler build and dakka with him.
I use my range and the fact that I have a steady and continous stream of damage.
I also don't step out and make myself the most prominent target. I stand with teammates soaking damage until I need to back out for a bit.
I let them forget about me for a few seconds and then remind them I'm still there
Keep in mind I'm not picking on you, I honestly just think you will have more success if you adjust your tactics a bit in that type of build
Also keep in mind that when I talk about soaking damage I'm doing THAT in a fully armored stalker or bmasters
I don't play the same in my Shawk or tbolt or ravens

I think the important thing to define here might be, 'What is a Brawler'?

There are many definitions. SOmeone that flanks at high speed perhaps with heavy close in damage, someone that can take hits and deliver them... all of these can define a brawler I suppose.

For me a Brawler is sort of all of the above though some might want a more specific answer and you could make say some of those are more of a striker or flanking mech only.

Frankly the post I made with my thunderbolt is all of the above. Its a standard engine, close in damage high speed mech. I use my speed to flank alot and my arms and standard engine to absorb alot of punishment while I dish out alot of damage in close.

[Sandpit]

See to me I think more in fighting like boxing or mma
A brawler wades in head down tanking through enemies dealing out medium to high damage to few targets

In most mmo type games you have 3 basic types
Tank
Support
Crowd control

Tanks are the brawlers
Support are the LRM and sniper types
Control are the harrasers and skirmishers

Now obviously that's an extreme simplification given the variety of builds and play styles in this game but I think it gives a good general idea of how I see those terms

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 01 January 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

See to me I think more in fighting like boxing or mma
A brawler wades in head down tanking through enemies dealing out medium to high damage to few targets

In most mmo type games you have 3 basic types
Tank
Support
Crowd control

Tanks are the brawlers
Support are the LRM and sniper types
Control are the harrasers and skirmishers

Now obviously that's an extreme simplification given the variety of builds and play styles in this game but I think it gives a good general idea of how I see those terms

Here is my general thoughts...

Scout
Scout/Flanker
Flanker
Flanker/Brawler
Brawler
Brawler/Tank
FireSupport
Firesupport/Brawler
True Tank
Striker
Jump Sniper
Boats

I would say would be the primary rolls there are overall. And mixes in between them.

[Noesis]

This is how with game play and other organisational influences I have come to separate various roles in MWO.

Recon :-

Scout = lights for battlefield awareness and e-war support
Flanker = fast lights and mediums mostly used as anti light control

Harrasing :-

Striker = fast lights and mediums configure more for hit and run with higher alpha configs
Skirmisher = slower mediums with good close quarter weapon configs
Mobile Fire support = e.g. dual ERLL Lights and Mediums with Fire support weapons

Fire Support :-

Direct Fire Support = Heavy or Assault platforms with sniper arrangements.
Indirect Fire Support = Heavy or Assault platforms concentrating on LRM use

Close Quarters :-

Brawler = Assaults configured for high damage potential or Alpha at shorter ranges.
Mauler or juggernaut = Heavies or Assaults with slowest speed builds built with mostly punch weaponry (AC20, SRMs, Pulse)

[Varent]

Noesis, on 01 January 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

This is how with game play and other organisational influences I have come to separate various roles in MWO.

Recon :-

Scout = lights for battlefield awareness and e-war support
Flanker = fast lights and mediums mostly used as anti light control

Harrasing :-

Striker = fast lights and mediums configure more for hit and run with higher alpha configs
Skirmisher = slower mediums with good close quarter weapon configs
Mobile Fire support = e.g. dual ERLL Lights and Mediums with Fire support weapons

Fire Support :-

Direct Fire Support = Heavy or Assault platforms with sniper arrangements.
Indirect Fire Support = Heavy or Assault platforms concentrating on LRM use

Close Quarters :-

Brawler = Assaults configured for high damage potential or Alpha at shorter ranges.
Mauler or juggernaut = Heavies or Assaults with slowest speed builds built with mostly punch weaponry (AC20, SRMs, Pulse)

Pretty accurate. Some deviations but pretty accurate.

[Sandpit]

I think we all have the same basic ideas but I think a lot of players work under the misconception that any build should be equal to all other builds in all situations.
Expecting an SRM boat to truck straight ahead against an AC40 trading blows shot for shot is just not going to end well for the SRM build most times
A LL sniper build isn't going to fare any better standing out in the open trading shots with a dedicated LRM boat at 650 meters either
That's where understanding roles and builds becomes much more important than dps and direct damage and I honestly think too few players understand this aspect of the game and weapons

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 01 January 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

I think we all have the same basic ideas but I think a lot of players work under the misconception that any build should be equal to all other builds in all situations.
Expecting an SRM boat to truck straight ahead against an AC40 trading blows shot for shot is just not going to end well for the SRM build most times
A LL sniper build isn't going to fare any better standing out in the open trading shots with a dedicated LRM boat at 650 meters either
That's where understanding roles and builds becomes much more important than dps and direct damage and I honestly think too few players understand this aspect of the game and weapons

Exactly.

[DrxAbstract]

Varent, on 01 January 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Felt the need to post this as an example.

4 medium lasers, 2 srm 6 with artemis and 2 machine gun.

So apparently medium lasers and srm are broken or bad and balistic is the only feasible thing huh?

and yet lasers and srm are the primary weapons on this mech.

I beg to differ with many people assertions.

Posting a game result with a damage total modified by Artillery/Airstrike is not an indicator of weapon performance.

[Varent]

DrxAbstract, on 01 January 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Posting a game result with a damage total modified by Artillery/Airstrike is not an indicator of weapon performance.

I dont use them. Think Again.

Edit - Not that I wouldnt use them... but Im saving money right now and not using any expendables until dropship.

Edited by Varent, 01 January 2014 - 06:50 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 01 January 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

I think we all have the same basic ideas but I think a lot of players work under the misconception that any build should be equal to all other builds in all situations.
Expecting an SRM boat to truck straight ahead against an AC40 trading blows shot for shot is just not going to end well for the SRM build most times
A LL sniper build isn't going to fare any better standing out in the open trading shots with a dedicated LRM boat at 650 meters either
That's where understanding roles and builds becomes much more important than dps and direct damage and I honestly think too few players understand this aspect of the game and weapons

I bow before the Master. Good post sir.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 01 January 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Felt the need to post this as an example.

4 medium lasers, 2 srm 6 with artemis and 2 machine gun.

So apparently medium lasers and srm are broken or bad and balistic is the only feasible thing huh?

and yet lasers and srm are the primary weapons on this mech.

I beg to differ with many people assertions.

Good job. If you had done that much damage with ballistics, instead, you would have easily twice as many kills, as all of the damage would have been where you placed it instead of spread all over the mechs. THAT is why front-loaded weapons are far superior to beam and spread damage weapons.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 02 January 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Good job. If you had done that much damage with ballistics, instead, you would have easily twice as many kills, as all of the damage would have been where you placed it instead of spread all over the mechs. THAT is why front-loaded weapons are far superior to beam and spread damage weapons.

Or you can accept the fact that other weapons are working just fine but there is a higher skill cap for using them effectively.

But its quite clear at this point that you will disagree with everything I say or show you regardless. Im jsut going to start posting every game I can with these weapon groups over and over and over again. Its said a picture speaks for a thousand words. Wonder how many of my posts showing the weapons are fine will be needed. I have alot in my archines :3

[Noesis]

It is still anecdotal evidence. It doesn't show the bad matches or the "overall" performance.

And being situational like others are saying it does not prove anything as to whether other things could perform better.

As such the evidence I provided for this study never claimed that Beams were useless only that Ballistics are better.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 02 January 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

It is still anecdotal evidence. It doesn't show the bad matches or the "overall" performance.

And being situational like others are saying it does not prove anything as to whether other things could perform better.

As such the evidence I provided for this study never claimed that Beams were useless only that Ballistics are better.

I average about 400+ in that mech pretty much every time, peaking around 700-800.

Obviously there are matches where you will get caught in a bad situation and outflanked or outmaneuvered or the god shots that hit you in an unlucky way. I quite like the mech and layout however.

That said I enjoy brawling and using those weapons. Some dont.

That said I actually agree on a major point of your statement Noesis. Situational.

Like everything in this game regarding balance.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 02 January 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Or you can accept the fact that other weapons are working just fine but there is a higher skill cap for using them effectively.

But its quite clear at this point that you will disagree with everything I say or show you regardless. Im jsut going to start posting every game I can with these weapon groups over and over and over again. Its said a picture speaks for a thousand words. Wonder how many of my posts showing the weapons are fine will be needed. I have alot in my archines :3

The issue is, you can't aim SRMs, they will hit all the torsos. By the same argument, I did 1298 damage with AC2s, did I use them effectively? No, they hit arms, side torsos and legs.

Srms are frontloaded, and do more damage ton for ton than ballistics, they cannot be aimed. Ballistics still have both the frontloaded and aimable alpha. Lasers are also a better choice in comparison.