40 replies to this topic

[Katkon]

Let me be completely clear upfront: I'm not very good at this game - I rarely do more than 500 damage in any game (I mostly do a rather pathetic 200-300 dmg and reside middle of the pack on my team at game's end). So no, I'm by no means great - or even good - at this game. BUT, I'm not particularly good at most games/shooters; I play for enjoyment. Most/many reviews talk of steep learning curves, complex controls and lots of complicated customizability, but I honestly don't find it any more complicated than a typical MMO (e.g. GW2, SWTOR), skill-tree-type shooter (e.g. Borderlands 2), or combat simulator (e.g. Arma 3). Sure, it may be harder than a casual FPS like CoD, but it's not a hard came to play at all. It may be hard to master, but many games are. Certainly not hard to learn and enjoy. Am in the minority with this point of view? Am I missing something?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Katkon, on 06 December 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Most/many reviews talk of steep learning curves, complex controls and lots of complicated customizability, but I honestly don't find it any more complicated than a typical MMO (e.g. GW2, SWTOR), skill-tree-type shooter (e.g. Borderlands 2), or combat simulator (e.g. Arma 3). Sure, it may be harder than a casual FPS like CoD, but it's not a hard came to play at all. It may be hard to master, but many games are. Certainly not hard to learn and enjoy. Am in the minority with this point of view? Am I missing something?

That about sums it up from my perspective......

[Koniving]

Katkon, on 06 December 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Let me be completely clear upfront: I'm not very good at this game - I rarely do more than 500 damage in any game (I mostly do a rather pathetic 200-300 dmg and reside middle of the pack on my team at game's end).

Those are pretty good for a new player less than a month old.

Katkon, on 06 December 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Most/many reviews talk of steep learning curves, complex controls and lots of complicated customizability. Certainly not hard to learn and enjoy. Am in the minority with this point of view? Am I missing something?

I don't think it's the controls. Although shooting at two different locations simultaneously can require a bit of coordination and there are more controls than meets the eye or currently available.
Examples

Spoiler

More than meets the eye;
1) The often unused ability of a Centurion to bring its shield in front of itself [twist 45 degrees right] and then hook its right arm above or below its shield [CTRL + mouse to the left] as a way of using the cannon while protecting it with the shield.
2) Using the arms to raise up and protect against missile, AC, and laser damage. 'Back-handing' AC rounds by pressing CTRL and a violent mouse movement towards the AC round (works best with large arms, example a Kintaro can do it better than a Shadowhawk).

More than available.
Clothesline / lariat. Charge toward enemy with enemy to your side. Hold out your arm so that you will 'clip' the enemy. Watch enemy fall over because your fist went to his cockpit. Shoot 'em when he's down.

Dropkick: Jumpjet into the air. Time your drop so that your feet collide with the head. If timed right, they fall and you land. If timed poorly, you both fall and get up at the same time.

Where the learning curve comes from is in addition to certain quirks of the game's origins rules come to play with heat (i.e. you cool faster if your heatsinks are submerged in water), MWO continues to add weird ways of trying to force balancing. Heat Scale is one such thing. That's where I believe the complication comes in. Though to be honest, I've come to ignore heat scale. I use 4 LLs like it doesn't matter. 3 PPCs in my Awesome like a bauss. It really doesn't mean much to me, and the only thing it stopped me from using is the AC/2... and only because it punishes me for spreading their fire (when heat scale is designed to punish you from firing too many at the same time).

[Lukoi Banacek]

Katkon, on 06 December 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

Let me be completely clear upfront: I'm not very good at this game - I rarely do more than 500 damage in any game (I mostly do a rather pathetic 200-300 dmg and reside middle of the pack on my team at game's end). So no, I'm by no means great - or even good - at this game. BUT, I'm not particularly good at most games/shooters; I play for enjoyment. Most/many reviews talk of steep learning curves, complex controls and lots of complicated customizability, but I honestly don't find it any more complicated than a typical MMO (e.g. GW2, SWTOR), skill-tree-type shooter (e.g. Borderlands 2), or combat simulator (e.g. Arma 3). Sure, it may be harder than a casual FPS like CoD, but it's not a hard came to play at all. It may be hard to master, but many games are. Certainly not hard to learn and enjoy. Am in the minority with this point of view? Am I missing something?

What makes it complex is the lack of a coherent resource that lays out the "rules" of the game for new people, especially since they have so many players coming in that know nothing of BT/TT/novel based lore.

[Koniving]

There used to be other things, such as repair and rearm. Lack of information on ranges. Smurfy didn't originally exist. "XL" engine sounds like extra large, not extra light. So some were confused about that. There was a few things about earlier on too such as actuator damage (removed), ammo cooking off when at 80% heat (removed), time-delayed convergence (removed), inability to armlock ('added' ability)... Once those things came in the game became quite simplified.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 06 December 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

MWO continues to add weird ways of trying to force balancing. Heat Scale is one such thing. That's where I believe the complication comes in.

Problem though: People have been complaining about the game being hard to learn since before I started playing, and that was well before GH.

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 06 December 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Problem though: People have been complaining about the game being hard to learn since before I started playing, and that was well before GH.

Game used to be more complicated too. After all before there was a computer voice, there was no way to know you took actuator damage... but your mech keeps trying to go left when you're going straight because one leg is moving slower. Or your right arm won't aim where you are pointing because it's actuator is damaged. Or you blow up at 85% heat because unknown to you your ammo just cooked off and you went up like popcorn.

Then there was the first time you drove an Atlas and wound up 300,000 cbills in debt despite getting 2 kills and 500 or so damage in. Don't forget until January or February, if you pressed fire it took half a second for it to happen. If you tried to turn left, it took half a second for it to happen. If you stopped, it took half a second to even start stopping and another second to stop.

Vid: Old convergence, firing delays, movement delays.

Then, SRMs were only reliable at specific ranges. At certain ranges they would go completely around the target without hitting him. An involved unjam mechanic for the UAC/5 that required about two seconds of key presses if you already knew what to do.

Also, standard engines and standard heatsinks only, so heat management was complicated, requiring chain fire and being very, very careful with what you do. Most mechs were 64 kph. Lights were 92. Assaults usually downgraded their engines to go 32 kph. Because of this, the water secret was absolutely crucial. Then there was Jenners ramming Jenners as a viable tactic to kill each other.

Streaks required you to stand a minimum distance of 30 meters to have a chance of hitting the target, and was really complex in gauging whether or not your shot would hit.
(How they used to work)
Short Vid
(How they work now)
Hilarious Vid
(Okay, this is how they work in a more genuine tone but it really can do those donuts.)
Genuine vid. Skip to 2 mins in if you want or enjoy the music.

The list goes on. Btw, did you know AC/20s used to cause splash damage and didn't require you to hit the target to hurt it? You could hit the ground nearby and still devastate a target.

Edited by Koniving, 06 December 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 06 December 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

The list goes on. Btw, did you know AC/20s used to cause splash damage and didn't require you to hit the target to hurt it? You could hit the ground nearby and still devastate a target.

Most of that was not in when I started, but the AC20 thing? Pretty sure that was, cause I remember being warned about that.

Still, last I checked (so take this with a grain of salt) most reviewers look at a game (or part of a game) once, before they write the review.

[Koniving]

Indeed and that's true, Shar. Most play it for a little while and then review. Or they get guided by David or an NGNG guy.

[Koniving]

There was another interesting thing. In Assault, capturing the base used to reward more than killing all enemies between the victory and salvage bonus of intact enemies, combined with lower repair costs.

This required more diverse gameplay than 'huddle in group and shoot stuff'.

This vid I found and uploaded yesterday is defending a base, something every team required some people to do due to even Atlases trying to capture it. Notice my chain fire habits from the two months before still haven't phased.

If you may note, I lead far ahead of the target -- this was required at the time for firing directly at the target did not register damage. Meaning you had to 'guess' where the enemy was located, making AC and PPC use all that more complex. That only added to the learning curve.
There was also role warfare, which was significantly more important at the time.

Ultimately though, all of it got removed to simplify the game.

Edited by Koniving, 06 December 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Lukoi, on 06 December 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

What makes it complex is the lack of a coherent resource that lays out the "rules" of the game for new people, especially since they have so many players coming in that know nothing of BT/TT/novel based lore.

If someone joined this game without pre-knowledge of BattleTech, this must be massively overwhelming.

Clearly, 3PV was a better thing to focus on for the new user experience than.. I don't know, addressing that.

[VIPER2207]

Shar Wolf, on 06 December 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Problem though: People have been complaining about the game being hard to learn since before I started playing, and that was well before GH.

to be honest, i think that's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with modern players.
today's players expect they play a game for the first time, and they perform as good as a veteran player. i heard from players playing forza motorsport the first time online, were completely beaten by the other players, and said "meh, this game sux, lets play need for speed again" (same with gran turismo, and to be honest, you get used to both games real quick). i know guys who hate dragon age 1, but love dragon age 2. guess why? because in dragon age 1, you have to think (at least a little bit) where you wanna go next, what you want to do next.... dragons age 2 gives you levels designed like a bunch of hoses.
remember games like "super mario land" for the first gameboy, where you had 3 lives (or something like that), and when you died the fourth time, you had to begin from the start? nowadays, when you die in a game, you respawn like 5 meters before.
i could talk about EvE Online now, but i think you get the point...

what i want to say: in former times, the average game was much harder, if you wanted to perform good and finish the game, you had to learn how to play it, and nobody had a problem with that. it's a problem of modern game design and modern players, not a problem of MWO.

[Charons Little Helper]

The play is more complex than the average shooter for certain - but more than that, I think it's the building of the mechs which has a learning curve.

[Koniving]

Viper, my case was I hated Dragon Age 2, but played Dragon Age 1 afterward and loved it enough to give DA2 another chance.

Another game, the Witcher, the intro looked great and the guy has all these abilities. So I played it and all I could do was an overhead swing. Seriously, a vertical chop was my only attack. No drag the mouse sideways to chop sideways. No fancy tricks either. Just one attack that reminded me of From Software's first person adventure RPGs which btw were AWFUL (I'm this spell casting dude who fights crabs by slowly poking them with a sword). I dropped the game. I hear all this hype about how awesome Witcher 2 is. "Pfft." I try it, and it's not bad. Turns out Witcher 1... you had to "unlock" horizontal swings...or any decent attack. (Seriously?)

MWO had a similar bane. With rising thresholds, the actual trial mechs sucked. 40 as their limit with 1x cooling. Bare bones 10 DHS mech with a 250 engine? 50 with 2x cooling. (The 1.4 stuff only starts when you manually add in more DHS. The ones that you don't add that are there automatically with your engine are 2.0). An elited bare bones mech, 60. The average custom mech, in the mid to high 70s.

So while the new player has no customization, no pilot skill tree, no real ammo, etc. and without ghost heat would immediately shut down on a middle-temperature map by firing 4 PPCs without even moving, a veteran player is able to fire 6 PPCs and then 6 PPCs and then 6 PPCs before shutting down, all the while moving at full speed. That made starting out a ~lot~ harder. And like my Witcher 1 example when you can't do anything and they can, why bother? (There are some issues with the game.)

Of course with MWO there is another issue that's more generic to many free to play games. Most paid-for multiplayer games have a single player mode with which you can learn how to play through it before you go into MP. MWO for a while didn't even have a testing grounds let alone the far from complete tutorial. Of course, more than 90% of first person shooter games in the free to play genre usually don't have a training grounds for years after they start. (Combat Arms was on its third year before it got one).

At the same time, if players know how to play battlefield the shift to MWO is much easier. Controls are identical to a tank. The same oddly enough is true of World of Tank players, where PGI got most of its ideas. And it is also true of most non-call-of-duty style first person shooters (since CoD holds your hand).

On another side of things... modern game design, if some older games were made today.

Spoiler

If Doom were made a few years ago.

If Quake were made today.

If Doom were made today.

Modern game design generally blows, and the modern audience is spoiled rotten with them.

Edited by Koniving, 07 December 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[VIPER2207]

Koniving, on 07 December 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Viper, my case was I hated Dragon Age 2, but played Dragon Age 1 afterward and loved it enough to give DA2 another chance.

i loved DA1, saw DA2, sold it after 60 minutes or something.... one of the most sad experiences i ever had with a game.
same thing (but not as hard as with DA) happened between mass effect 1 and 2... a lot RPG-elements from ME1 disappeared in ME2.

Quote

talk about witcher and MWO

Spoiler

Another game, the Witcher, the intro looked great and the guy has all these abilities. So I played it and all I could do was an overhead swing. Seriously, a vertical chop was my only attack. No drag the mouse sideways to chop sideways. No fancy tricks either. Just one attack that reminded me of From Software's first person adventure RPGs which btw were AWFUL (I'm this spell casting dude who fights crabs by slowly poking them with a sword). I dropped the game. I hear all this hype about how awesome Witcher 2 is. "Pfft." I try it, and it's not bad. Turns out Witcher 1... you had to "unlock" horizontal swings...or any decent attack. (Seriously?)

MWO had a similar bane. With rising thresholds, the actual trial mechs sucked. 40 as their limit with 1x cooling. Bare bones 10 DHS mech with a 250 engine? 50 with 2x cooling. (The 1.4 stuff only starts when you manually add in more DHS. The ones that you don't add that are there automatically with your engine are 2.0). An elited bare bones mech, 60. The average custom mech, in the mid to high 70s.

So while the new player has no customization, no pilot skill tree, no real ammo, etc. and without ghost heat would immediately shut down on a middle-temperature map by firing 4 PPCs without even moving, a veteran player is able to fire 6 PPCs and then 6 PPCs and then 6 PPCs before shutting down, all the while moving at full speed. That made starting out a ~lot~ harder. And like my Witcher 1 example when you can't do anything and they can, why bother? (There are some issues with the game.)

Of course with MWO there is another issue that's more generic to many free to play games. Most paid-for multiplayer games have a single player mode with which you can learn how to play through it before you go into MP. MWO for a while didn't even have a testing grounds let alone the far from complete tutorial. Of course, more than 90% of first person shooter games in the free to play genre usually don't have a training grounds for years after they start. (Combat Arms was on its third year before it got one).

At the same time, if players know how to play battlefield the shift to MWO is much easier. Controls are identical to a tank. The same oddly enough is true of World of Tank players, where PGI got most of its ideas. And it is also true of most non-call-of-duty style first person shooters (since CoD holds your hand).

i didn't play any part of the witcher-series.
and of course, MWO has some serious issues with new-player-experience. the total lack of tutorials (really, this movement-tutorial-thingy.... screw it) is a big point. the client itself even doesn't show you essential things, like for example the number of missile-tubes on a specific hardpoint. every time i see someone suggesting a stalker as the best LRM-boat in the game, i come up with "yo, wait a second, let's talk about tubes, volleys and AMS...".
BUT on the other side.... former games didn't tell you anything at all. I was able to achieve at least average skills and an at least average amount of knowledge about MWO, so why can't other people?
answer is simple: because they don't want to look up things by themselfes and read. and this is a problem of the modern gamer.
EvE Online has the same issues, the tutorials are very fundamental. the difference between EvE and the recent state of MWO is the difference in complexity. while EvE is (at least in my opinion) the most complex economy-simulation ever developed, MWO in it's current state is just a simple, but little different from standard FPS. client should explain everything needed, and some simple tutorials could cover everything a player needs. that's a fault from PGI.

Quote

On another side of things... modern game design, if some older games were made today.

Spoiler

If Doom were made a few years ago.

If Quake were made today.

If Doom were made today.

Modern game design generally blows, and the modern audience is spoiled rotten with them.

these videos are so sad, and so true... and very funny on the other side

[Koniving]

Don't forget the lack of official instruction manuals these days!

Seriously, the last 49 games I got didn't even have a manual, and they were brand new. (I know they were digital downloads but how hard is it to make a PDF?)

But on a very positive note, check out this post of mine in the crystal waters sale. Camo stoofs!

Edited by Koniving, 07 December 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Appogee]

You are just naturally gifted.

[Modo44]

VIPER2207, on 07 December 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

to be honest, i think that's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with modern players.

Yeah, expecting basic game systems, like weapon ranges, ghost heat, or Gauss charging, to be explained in the ******* UI. How dare those kids.

[VIPER2207]

Koniving, on 07 December 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Don't forget the lack of official instruction manuals these days!

Seriously, the last 49 games I got didn't even have a manual, and they were brand new. (I know they were digital downloads but how hard is it to make a PDF?)

oh yeah, that's another issue...
even the physical boxed games don't come with a manual (except some limited editions).
i remember some years ago, when the first games in the modern dvd-style-boxes came out, there was a report on a german gaming magazine (gamestar i think), where the autor predicted exactly this... no more manuals in some years and stuff.... sad he was right

Modo44, on 07 December 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Yeah, expecting basic game systems, like weapon ranges, ghost heat, or Gauss charging, to be explained in the ******* UI. How dare those kids.

i relativized that in my next post...

Edited by VIPER2207, 07 December 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Blurry]

VIPER2207, on 07 December 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

oh yeah, that's another issue...
even the physical boxed games don't come with a manual (except some limited editions).
i remember some years ago, when the first games in the modern dvd-style-boxes came out, there was a report on a german gaming magazine (gamestar i think), where the autor predicted exactly this... no more manuals in some years and stuff.... sad he was right



i relativized that in my next post...

Yup -
those guides altho fantastic should never be needed.
I am very glad for those who did them and thank them but players should never have to go through that much effort to let other people enjoy a game they dont directly see monetary support from.
It just seems like it was an expense that was removed for the sake of the bottom line. Forget player help and or instructions.

And yes when playing I still go back to get more info from those guides or weapon stat pages and what X means. For me this was all new and even tho stopped playing a little while ago just a few weeks ago found out the arm lock!

And now that players have moved on those guides are outdated and arent holding water but are needed. why cant the devs do this? Or you know sub contract it out like other companies do for guides ect and take a %.

That little tutorial is {Scrap} I went through it and frankly spent more time with the beginners guide and the testing ground on my own with the trial mechs.
If/when I come back they will be needed again but alas they will all be out of date cause you know pgi - killing the game faster than the competition can.

Why give players information and show them how to play - they want to make money off all the stupid mistakes you make in purchasing stuff. Cant take advantage of an informed player. (or harder)

That is my cynical conclusion about it.

Edited by Blurry, 07 December 2013 - 07:39 AM.