85 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Trauglodyte, on 11 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

You still haven't explained why 4 is the right number. 3 sounds right along with an increase in the Ghost Heat tax (done because they expanded the number), especially given the fact that Lrg Pulse Lasers are also grouped with regular Large Lasers.

Three is to low cause of Canon Chassis that carry 3 already. An argument could be made for 6 since there is the Supernova...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 December 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

So by that logic PPCs should go to 4 because of the Warhawk and the Hellstar. AC/2s should be what 8 because of the Kraken? AC/20s at 2 because of the King Crab and Hunchback IIC.

sorry but no.. I don't like ghost heat either as a mechanic but its what we got and the limits make some sense. 4x ER LL battlemasters and Stalkers show us why GH is set under 4. maybe 3 is ok but deff not 4

[Damocles69]

4 large dumps out an alpha of 36 damage. 8 medium 40 . This will put laser boats on equal footing with flying 40point alphatarts

[Kunae]

Or... we could just remove ghost heat entirely, return the remaining modified weapons back to canon heat-levels, and focus on getting Hit-det right before messing with anything balance-related.

PPC's and ERPPC's at canon heat, once they finally figured out that it's something that should be done, has minimized PPC usage just on its own. "Ghost heat" is unnecessary and foolish.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kunae, on 11 December 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Or... we could just remove ghost heat entirely, return the remaining modified weapons back to canon heat-levels, and focus on getting Hit-det right before messing with anything balance-related.

PPC's and ERPPC's at canon heat, once they finally figured out that it's something that should be done, has minimized PPC usage just on its own. "Ghost heat" is unnecessary and foolish.

This would work or me!

Lucian Nostra, on 11 December 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

So by that logic PPCs should go to 4 because of the Warhawk and the Hellstar. AC/2s should be what 8 because of the Kraken? AC/20s at 2 because of the King Crab and Hunchback IIC.

sorry but no.. I don't like ghost heat either as a mechanic but its what we got and the limits make some sense. 4x ER LL battlemasters and Stalkers show us why GH is set under 4. maybe 3 is ok but deff not 4

Yup. They are Canon and were just fine The Bane could fire all 8 with no heat problems so yes.

Quote

Armament

This long-range, direct-fire support 'Mech is armed with ten Ultra Autocannon/2s. This weapon has one of the longest ranges in the Clan arsenal, so the Bane can stand back at extreme range and pepper an enemy unit with impunity. Four tons of ammunition keep the 'Mech well-supplied. It runs into problems up close, however, stemming from the minimum range of the autocannons. To keep enemies at bay, especially unarmored infantry, the Bane mounts four Machine Guns. Ten double heat sinks are sufficient to keep the 'Mech cool.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 December 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Three is to low cause of Canon Chassis that carry 3 already. An argument could be made for 6 since there is the Supernova...

I'm usually with you, Joe, but we can't use canon as a means to balance/implement Ghost Heat. Canon builds were designed without max armor, have full 2.0 DHSs, and don't run max tier 2 tech (most only have one of the following: ES, FF, XL engines). If we actually tried to replicate canon, we'd go mad in seconds. Anyway, we've got canon designs now that don't work with Ghost Heat (see the Awesome).

Damocles69, on 11 December 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

4 large dumps out an alpha of 36 damage. 8 medium 40 . This will put laser boats on equal footing with flying 40point alphatarts

And there we have it, ladies and gentleman. He wants to be on par with poptarting awfulness with a build that he likes. We shouldn't raise the limit to 4 because it makes sense. Rather, it needs to be raised so he doesn't get taxed like the other mechs. Bravo!

[FupDup]

If our heat system didn't have an absurdly high rising capacity, then maybe huge alpha strikes wouldn't be possible in the first place, and we could buff dissipation dramatically so that you don't fry yourself by firing 3 Medium Lasers.

[Damocles69]

My point is that via ghost heat. Pgi tried to limit alpha to around 30 damage. The only thing is that that when they did this they forgot about PLC+AC20 or ac5 or USAC. As a result you have 1 or 2 builds able to dish out signigigantly more damage more effectively than other builds. Because other weapons have been nerffed so much I simply propose that we get other weapon systems on the same level as power weapons instated of neffing everything within the current mechanics of the game

[Trauglodyte]

I don't really mind Ghost Heat on some things but I think that it is really rediculous for most weapons (see the AC2). The heat adjustment on the PPC has worked and the tax on large lasers has forced a different playstyle usage. The rest is kind of wonky and odd. I'm much more inclined to go with a heat scale modifier like in TT but it is a wonder if it is even possible given how little people even bother watching heat. Plus, people would go ape **** if we added a heat induced CoF. Can't please them all, I guess.

[Damocles69]

Kunae, on 11 December 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Or... we could just remove ghost heat entirely, return the remaining modified weapons back to canon heat-levels, and focus on getting Hit-det right before messing with anything balance-related.

PPC's and ERPPC's at canon heat, once they finally figured out that it's something that should be done, has minimized PPC usage just on its own. "Ghost heat" is unnecessary and foolish.

Yes this is the reasonable solution. It will never happen however

[Joseph Mallan]

Trauglodyte, on 11 December 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm usually with you, Joe, but we can't use canon as a means to balance/implement Ghost Heat. Canon builds were designed without max armor, have full 2.0 DHSs, and don't run max tier 2 tech (most only have one of the following: ES, FF, XL engines). If we actually tried to replicate canon, we'd go mad in seconds. Anyway, we've got canon designs now that don't work with Ghost Heat (see the Awesome).



And there we have it, ladies and gentleman. He wants to be on par with poptarting awfulness with a build that he likes. We shouldn't raise the limit to 4 because it makes sense. Rather, it needs to be raised so he doesn't get taxed like the other mechs. Bravo!

And that is terrible Traug. the Awesome should be a powerful and scary opponent. able to sustain a withering amount of PPC fire.

As for the Supernova... I admit stretching, even if it was a hot monster on TT.

[Damocles69]

Trauglodyte, on 11 December 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm usually with you, Joe, but we can't use canon as a means to balance/implement Ghost Heat. Canon builds were designed without max armor, have full 2.0 DHSs, and don't run max tier 2 tech (most only have one of the following: ES, FF, XL engines). If we actually tried to replicate canon, we'd go mad in seconds. Anyway, we've got canon designs now that don't work with Ghost Heat (see the Awesome).



And there we have it, ladies and gentleman. He wants to be on par with poptarting awfulness with a build that he likes. We shouldn't raise the limit to 4 because it makes sense. Rather, it needs to be raised so he doesn't get taxed like the other mechs. Bravo!

No not all. You simply can't have a weapon combo IN a competitive game that is outright better than all other options.

[Kunae]

FupDup, on 11 December 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

If our heat system didn't have an absurdly high rising capacity, then maybe huge alpha strikes wouldn't be possible in the first place, and we could buff dissipation dramatically so that you don't fry yourself by firing 3 Medium Lasers.

Part of that problem is that ML heat is not canon. ML's generate 4 heat per, in MWO, and canon is 3 heat.

[Joseph Mallan]

Damocles69, on 11 December 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

No not all. You simply can't have a weapon combo IN a competitive game that is outright better than all other options.

Its funny to me when people say this. I beat those "outright better" builds a fair amount with a less than competitive Atlas build

(note: I was using this when PPCs were a joke not OP)

[Damocles69]

If you have a weapon combo on game capable of doing 40pts of damage than all other com boss need to be limited to around that number except those extreamly limited by range ( I.e. SRMs and small lasers). As to why large lasers are doing more damage than ppc, you need to incivise using lasers because of the way the do damage (DOT vs. Pinpoint)

[Lightfoot]

4 LLAS would be a bit much, but two is too weak. Three LLAS is a reasonable balance point.

Of course I say trash Ghost Heat all together and get back to MechWarrior/Battletech. Ghost Heat changes the game and it's just to lower DPS, but only affects Energy weapons which unbalances the three weapon types and ends any chance of Inner Sphere competing with the Clans.

All they need to do is balance armor with actual gamplay needs as this affects all weapons equally. I mean if you are going to leave Battletech norms with Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4 you have already trampled Battletech much more than just tweaking armor values a bit. Strange how the easiest solution is never even tried. I would be glad to test increased armor and no Heat Nerfs on the test server. I bet most balance problems would just dissolve.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Its funny to me when people say this. I beat those "outright better" builds a fair amount with a less than competitive Atlas build

(note: I was using this when PPCs were a joke not OP)

Why does that thing have a Command Console? Why is there CASE in a side torso without ammo? Why is there an open critical slot in the Gauss side that could house more Gauss ammo as crit packing? WHY DID YOU PUT AN XL IN YOUR ATLAS??!?!?!!?!?!

[Bront]

3 is a better number than 2, but the problem is LLs are split among LL, ERLL, and LPL as one group, and I think the limit was aimed at LPLs.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 11 December 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Why does that thing have a Command Console? Why is there CASE in a side torso without ammo? Why is there an open critical slot in the Gauss side that could house more Gauss ammo as crit packing? WHY DID YOU PUT AN XL IN YOUR ATLAS??!?!?!!?!?!

Why should I care if i was getting 1.3 K/D ratios with it at the time?

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Why should I care if i was getting 1.3 K/D ratios with it at the time?

Because you could make it even higher after some adjustments.


PS: My Locust 3M KDR is higher than your Atlas's.