41 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

I've been thinking and for the love of it, I can't think why you would ever take an LRM10, when you could take 2 LRM5s. Two LRM5s fire faster and cooler than one LRM10, plus do not suffer from any ghost heat penalties.

In testing in matches and in game, 4 LRM5s core a mech faster than a single LRM20. So you have faster fire rate, easier time killing a mech, and weigh less in tonnage. This doesn't seem right. And to me, there needs to be a reason why you should always take an LRM20 over 4 LRM5s, an LRM15 over 3 LRM5s, and an LRM10 over 2 LRM5s.

[Dock Steward]

AMS has an easier time shooting down LRM5's when they are chain fired than it does shooting down larger salvos. Also, if Artemis is used, the larger rack is going to be lighter than multiple smaller equivalents.

[MonkeyCheese]

Tlords, on 11 December 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I've been thinking and for the love of it, I can't think why you would ever take an LRM10, when you could take 2 LRM5s.

Hardpoint numbers, got a single lrm10 on my srm/ml build stalker that works perfectly fine. or 2ssrm2 and 1lrm10 on a victor with 3 missile hardpoints.

Backup weapons have their uses, a all lrm5 a1 cat is harmless upclose.

[Bobdolemite]

There are really a lot of variables but the heat of larger launchers and ghost heat considerations also come into play. My big rack missile boats feel clumsy / cumbersome and prone to uselessness on certain maps with good cover.

My 6 x LRM 5 CPLT-A1 on chain fire can unload for quite a while before it has to worry about heat (on most maps, you notice it on Terra Therma). Reliance on quantity over quality in this case allows me to "try" to squeeze some missiles through where with a larger launcher I wouldn't dare risk it.

Due to a number of things regarding missiles in general the lrm 5 is a better choice. Under most circumstances with a reasonably competent opponent the larger salvos lose part of their effectiveness due to spread and dodging. Even with Artemis my LRM 15 spreads considerably where the LRM 5 is concentrated and tends to core / lop off limbs and legs.

With a good team, one that covers their support mechs, a LRM boat with large racks can be a decisive factor in a match. In PUG matches though where everything is random, more often than not you can find yourself in a world of hurt.

AMS does hurt chain fire LRM 5 but its not an issue unless there are multiple mechs supporting eachother. A lone AMS still wont stop your whole salvo, multiples though watch out.

Edited by Bobdolemite, 11 December 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Tlords, on 11 December 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

In testing in matches and in game, 4 LRM5s core a mech faster than a single LRM20. So you have faster fire rate, easier time killing a mech, and weigh less in tonnage. This doesn't seem right. And to me, there needs to be a reason why you should always take an LRM20 over 4 LRM5s, an LRM15 over 3 LRM5s, and an LRM10 over 2 LRM5s.

1st - the LRM5s each take up a hardpoint of their own

2nd - that's only without Artemis - with artemis - the 4xLRM5 weighs 12 tons - a single LRM20 weighs 11 tons - 80-90% of builds with LRMs should have Artemis

By your logic - a brawler should take nothing but small lasers instead of large. 3 small lasers (within 90 meters) will kill someone far faster than a sole large laser. The 3 small lasers weigh less than a third and have less heat.

[Bobdolemite]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

1st - the LRM5s each take up a hardpoint of their own

2nd - that's only without Artemis - with artemis - the 4xLRM5 weighs 12 tons - a single LRM20 weighs 11 tons - 80-90% of builds with LRMs should have Artemis

By your logic - a brawler should take nothing but small lasers instead of large. 3 small lasers (within 90 meters) will kill someone far faster than a sole large laser. The 3 small lasers weigh less than a third and have less heat.

IMO Artemis for LRM-5 doesn't have a great enough benefit to warrant the weight and slots. Anything 15 and up I run Artemis, for 10's depends on the build but usually not.

For most weapons as you scale up in size the damage increases exponentially while most aspects of the weapon such as beam size and duration stay the same. For LRM's though size is not necessarily proportionate to the damage it does, due to terrain and dodging mostly. Even when a salvo hits part of it could have been clipped on terrain or fallen slightly behind / to the side of the mech causing little to no damage.

Boated LRM 5 can do the long range support job better than larger launchers due to the confined spread of the salvo, and lower heat. The slots and tonnage freed up is icing on the cake, they can be put to many good uses

[Shadey99]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 December 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

2nd - that's only without Artemis - with artemis - the 4xLRM5 weighs 12 tons - a single LRM20 weighs 11 tons - 80-90% of builds with LRMs should have Artemis

If your using LRM5s and artemis you are doing it wrong. The only advantage to artemis with LRM5s is slightly reduced lock on times, they are already so focused in their groupings that artemis does nothing for them.

I did extensive testing on tube count/launcher size a month or two ago. Small numbers of missiles launched rapidly tend to overwhelm AMS and if continued for an extended time drain ammo from the AMS rapidly even if the missiles do little to no damage. LRM5s and mechs with small tube launchers like the X-5 can rapidly deplete AMS when it is used while all their missiles target CT or legs (for fast runners).

Even more their is a slight delay time one can take advantage of in an AMS by firing several rapid bursts, pausing a slight amount of time and sending a large volley. Timed just right you catch the AMS on a 'cooldown cycle' were it is largely ineffective. A 6xLRM5 build can do this by simply chain firing, pause for a fraction of a second, and then group firing. I tested this with differing tube sized launchers because I hate running my Catapult A1 as 6xLRM5s, but the principle holds.

ALl that said large launchers can be very effective. My BLR-1S LRM50 (2x10+2x15 or 2x5+2x20) can be absolutely brutal in large group firings. Mechs caught in the open without AMS take damage like a artillery hit and any exposed internals are going to feel it. Which makes it great for cleanup during the mid to late game. However the early game is when it is very weak.

And of course multiple ECM kills LRMS completely anyways... So if ECM is in play and you don't have TAG or a spotter then you are going to be fairly useless.

[Victor Morson]

Tlords, on 11 December 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

I've been thinking and for the love of it, I can't think why you would ever take an LRM10, when you could take 2 LRM5s. Two LRM5s fire faster and cooler than one LRM10, plus do not suffer from any ghost heat penalties.

In testing in matches and in game, 4 LRM5s core a mech faster than a single LRM20. So you have faster fire rate, easier time killing a mech, and weigh less in tonnage. This doesn't seem right. And to me, there needs to be a reason why you should always take an LRM20 over 4 LRM5s, an LRM15 over 3 LRM5s, and an LRM10 over 2 LRM5s.

A bunch of reasons:

• Hardpoint Limitations
  
• Missile Tube Limitations (some 'mechs change their launcher configs based on the weapon, others do not; this can make a huge difference)
  
• Artemis adds an extra ton to every launcher
  
• Ghost Heat.

Ghost Heat is the big one.




Basically here's the long and short of it: If you want to fire all your missiles at once (You always do against AMS) you need to realize how this works.

Basically you can have 2 launchers of any size except the 5, which does not count, or you begin taking extra heat. Thus 3 10s and a 20 will generate 4x 20 ghost heat and cause MASSIVE heat issues.

If you're group firing your 2x10 2x15, have you noticed it runs much hotter than your 2x5 2x20? Ghost Heat would be the reason. In the first setup you'll gain 4x 15 Ghost Heat. In the second scenario, since the 5 is exempt, you'll gain 0 Ghost Heat.

On your final point: Always carry TAG. And BAP, because BAP will allow you to counter ECM up close, if something comes near you; a single ECM Raven won't cause all your missiles to lose lock. It also offers target scanning advantages. Very good.

-

Bottom line:

3x 10 1x 20 = VERY HOT - Penalty is LRM/20 heat times 4 (50 missiles)
2x 20 2x 5 = No heat penalty (50 missiles)

So this combined with the other factors is the main reason OP.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Bobdolemite, on 12 December 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

IMO Artemis for LRM-5 doesn't have a great enough benefit to warrant the weight and slots.
Boated LRM 5 can do the long range support job better than larger launchers due to the confined spread of the salvo, and lower heat.

Shadey99, on 12 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

If your using LRM5s and artemis you are doing it wrong. The only advantage to artemis with LRM5s is slightly reduced lock on times, they are already so focused in their groupings that artemis does nothing for them.

You are correct that the benefits of Artemis on LRM5 is small, but that is not the question at hand. The question is why use larger launchers. Artemis is on of the reasons to use larger launchers, because it is so inefficient on 5-packs, that by taking 5-packs and saving that ton/crit, you also lose the benefit of the Artemis.

(Not directly related)
Shadey: The lock-on speed increase is significant.
Bob: 5-packs have a lower heat per launcher, but a higher heat per tube (4xLRM5=8 Heat, 1xLRM20=6 Heat)

[Shadey99]

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

On your final point: Always carry TAG. And BAP, because BAP will allow you to counter ECM up close, if something comes near you; a single ECM Raven won't cause all your missiles to lose lock. It also offers target scanning advantages. Very good.

I do not believe in BAP with LRMs, LRM minimum range is just far far to close to BAP maximum range for the two to ever sync well. The only time it comes in handy tends to be when you want to lock powered down mechs up close. However if you are that close you can dumb fire them and hit the enemy. TAG cuts through multiple ECMs which BAP will not and works just fine up close (better sometimes if it is in a mobile arm mount). I will use a BAP with SSRMs (funny enough what I also do with artemis and SSRMs as long as PGI refuses to fix that) because those ranges overlap.

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Bottom line:
3x 10 1x 20 = VERY HOT - Penalty is LRM/20 heat times 4 (50 missiles)
2x 20 2x 5 = No heat penalty (50 missiles)

This is true, but difference in the the way 2xLRM10+2xLRM15 act and the way 2xLRM5+2xLRM20 act is complex. The first fires with fairly similar timing and even if the LRM10s fire first you get two large loads of missiles (20 and 30 grouped), if you want really fat loads of rain the 2x10+2x15 delivers. However the 2x5+2x20 have radically different cycle times, enough so that the 2x5s will fire ~33% faster in stats and closer to twice as fast in use. Sometimes the trade off in heat is simply worth the larger more well timed groups.

OneEyed Jack, on 12 December 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

You are correct that the benefits of Artemis on LRM5 is small, but that is not the question at hand. The question is why use larger launchers. Artemis is on of the reasons to use larger launchers, because it is so inefficient on 5-packs, that by taking 5-packs and saving that ton/crit, you also lose the benefit of the Artemis.

Shadey: The lock-on speed increase is significant.

From my testing artemis was about a 20% reduction in lock on time. TAG has about the same effect or seems to. Together they did not seem to stack though. It did not matter how many times I tested the time seemed the same when using them both. That doesn't mean they did not work together, just that the visible result in my tests wasn't sufficient to show a deviation.

This suggests TAG is more efficient at providing the same effect as Artemis... While also nulling ECM. Since artemis only works with line of sight and TAG does as well out to 750m, the only time artemis becomes worth it is when you run the A1 which cannot run a TAG and even then only with larger launchers. Of course I'd also say A1 Catapults just make god awful LRM platforms anyways because LRMs need supporting equipment that SRMS do not, but that is another topic.

I tested Cicadas (X-5, which has small tube counts even with large launchers), Catapults (all of them), and eventually the BLR-1S with consistent results. It also supports things like: If your going to use a single launcher go with a 15 or 20 because a 5 or even 10 won't work in all situations and you want to use it with TAG or artemis depending. If you have more hard points 5s and 10s prove far more versatile and don't need artemis, TAG will do fine by itself.

[OneEyed Jack]

Shadey99, on 12 December 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

I do not believe in BAP with LRMs, LRM minimum range is just far far to close to BAP maximum range for the two to ever sync well. The only time it comes in handy tends to be when you want to lock powered down mechs up close. However if you are that close you can dumb fire them and hit the enemy. TAG cuts through multiple ECMs which BAP will not and works just fine up close (better sometimes if it is in a mobile arm mount). I will use a BAP with SSRMs (funny enough what I also do with artemis and SSRMs as long as PGI refuses to fix that) because those ranges overlap.

BAP increases sensor range. There's a module to do that, and in certain instances it does it better, but depending on chassis and any other modules you need, the slot might not be available. Without one of the two, your sensor range is shorter than your missile range. Without a forward spotter you're effective max range drops to 800. Granted, you don't generally want to shoot at max LRM range, but that leeway you have to allow is still there, now based on a shorter range, since the target running out of lock range has the same effect as them running out of missile range.

Probably more important is that it prevents ECM Lights from shutting you completely down just by being in the vicinity. TAG doesn't help at all if you're in an ECM bubble.

Between the two, and with no hardpoint requirements, at only 1.5 tons, it's worth it to me to put it on every LRM mech I run, even if not running Artemis or TAG.

YMMV, but I'll always recommend it.

[Shadey99]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 December 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

BAP increases sensor range. There's a module to do that, and in certain instances it does it better, but depending on chassis and any other modules you need, the slot might not be available. Without one of the two, your sensor range is shorter than your missile range. Without a forward spotter you're effective max range drops to 800. Granted, you don't generally want to shoot at max LRM range, but that leeway you have to allow is still there, now based on a shorter range, since the target running out of lock range has the same effect as them running out of missile range.

Probably more important is that it prevents ECM Lights from shutting you completely down just by being in the vicinity. TAG doesn't help at all if you're in an ECM bubble.

Realistic effective LRM range is ~700-800m (which equates nicely with TAG range and normal sensor range). I used to run the sensor module, but in my testing it just didn't matter. Since no smart LRM boat is on the front line (they are just behind it), even PUGs usually manage to eventually target the enemy mech they shoot at, so you can make long shots if you still want to.

The second part... Just isn't true. I can have two ECM mechs circling me at ranges below LRM minimum and shoot a Atlas DDC using TAG outside that range. Anything you target with TAG is automatically available to fire on regardless of ECM (including numbers of). Heck I even use it with SSRMs in many cases for those double teaming circling lights and they get quite the shock when my TAG cuts through their ECM and they get hammered. Now you do need to keep it on target so I'd suggest an arm mount against light mechs. TAG is the ultimate nullifier for ECM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Shadey99, on 13 December 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Realistic effective LRM range is ~700-800m (which equates nicely with TAG range and normal sensor range).

Realistic effective range without a boost to sensor range drops to something more like 600 if you don't have a forward spotter, obviously longer if the target is slow and not near cover. Just try shooting at anything that can move at 800 meters of you don't have someone closer spotting for you. They drop back a little bit, you lose lock, and it's the same as if you had shot at a target out of range.

I never assume others will be spotting for me.

[Ngamok]

Like someone pointed out, and LRM5 takes up a slot. On my TDR-9SE I run LRMs but it only has 2 slots for them and they are 10 tubes. I am not going to put in 2 5s, istead it has 2 15s so they shoot out 10/10 + 5/5.

[Charons Little Helper]

Shadey99, on 12 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Small numbers of missiles launched rapidly tend to overwhelm AMS and if continued for an extended time drain ammo from the AMS rapidly even if the missiles do little to no damage.

Intentionally trying to use up someone's AMS ammo with LRMs is like trying to bruise someone's knuckles with your face.

Does it work? Yes - technically.

Is it a good idea? No.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 13 December 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[Shadey99]

Charons Little Helper, on 13 December 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Intentionally trying to use up someone's AMS ammo with LRMs is like trying to bruise someone's knuckles with your face.

Does it work? Yes - technically.

Is it a good idea? No.

It can be. The best use is a 'streamer' and a 'hammer'. The streamer wears down the AMS in the early game and the hammer finishes them later on. It's odd to see a AMS mech run more than a ton of AMS ammo and a mech with even a couplw of LRM5s can easily keep an AMS active til it runs out given sufficient ammo. I run my LCT-3S with a pair of LRM5s that I use to wear down AMS (and get the occasional hit if no one has ECM or AMS). Paired to a mech like a Stalker or BLR-1S with big missile loads it is brutally effective.

[FerrolupisXIII]

Shadey99, on 13 December 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

It can be. The best use is a 'streamer' and a 'hammer'. The streamer wears down the AMS in the early game and the hammer finishes them later on. It's odd to see a AMS mech run more than a ton of AMS ammo and a mech with even a couplw of LRM5s can easily keep an AMS active til it runs out given sufficient ammo. I run my LCT-3S with a pair of LRM5s that I use to wear down AMS (and get the occasional hit if no one has ECM or AMS). Paired to a mech like a Stalker or BLR-1S with big missile loads it is brutally effective.

Thats nice and all, but why not a Raven with a pair of 5's or if you're keen on it the Oxide? the locust is way too small. i'd think you'd be better off with a Tag/mediums and just being the usual light. go find that target for your big boats.

[Charons Little Helper]

Shadey99, on 13 December 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

It can be. The best use is a 'streamer' and a 'hammer'. The streamer wears down the AMS in the early game and the hammer finishes them later on. It's odd to see a AMS mech run more than a ton of AMS ammo and a mech with even a couplw of LRM5s can easily keep an AMS active til it runs out given sufficient ammo. I run my LCT-3S with a pair of LRM5s that I use to wear down AMS (and get the occasional hit if no one has ECM or AMS). Paired to a mech like a Stalker or BLR-1S with big missile loads it is brutally effective.

Indeed - you'd be better off playing tag spotter.

[Shadey99]

FerrolupisXIII, on 13 December 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Thats nice and all, but why not a Raven with a pair of 5's or if you're keen on it the Oxide? the locust is way too small. i'd think you'd be better off with a Tag/mediums and just being the usual light. go find that target for your big boats.

You could run any of a dozen or two mechs, yes. But a LCT-3S should not be getting in close so standing off with a TAG and a pair of LRM5s is a good purpose for it. And why not use the Locust, especially if you are mastering them? Sure go with a Raven or a Oxide if you want that, but there is not a good reason not to use the LCT-3S. You don't even need TAG to be an effective spotter, so you can move at 160+ kph, targeting mechs for missile barrages, and firing your own missiles to keep the enemy AMS busy.

Charons Little Helper, on 13 December 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Indeed - you'd be better off playing tag spotter.

You can spot with the LCT-3S, or run a ML for protection. But, a TAG won't maximize the missile fire on the target. A stream of LRMs (which can then be swatted down instead of the larger block) does.

Both of you are thinking very 'inside the box', jailbreak yourselves and think more of how that sort of build can be tactically useful for your team.

Edited by Shadey99, 13 December 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Mr 144]

OK...I've sandbagged enough in this thread (old-school CB term)

Shadey99 is wrong. There's no polite way of saying it.

Mr. BAP "I don't believe in it" is not for offensive targeing per se...it's for defense against the lone ECM light that will shut you down. Any Lurmer knows this.

Artemis > TAG IN ALL situations. Even when pugging, TAGging lights are common resulting in full benifits to indirect fire. Self-TAG only benifits LoS < 750m.

If you forego Artemis AND have LoS with self TAG, then you have half benefit.

If you take Artemis AND have LoS you have half benefit.

If you forego Artemis and are indirect firing on a Tagged Target (by a spotter), you have half benefit.

If you take Artemis and are indirect firing on a Tagged Target (by a spotter), you have half benefit.

So far...Even Steven....here's the "money shot".....

WITH LoS....and taking Artemis, you are MORE LIKELY to have a (spotter) TAGged target resulting in double benefits.

WITHOUT Artemis, your self-TAG is redundant...nothing escapes this scenario.

Spotters cannot give artemis benefits....spotters can give TAG benefits....therefore Artemis is > TAG for the Lurmer.

Touching on the poo-poo-ism of shadey on the increased lock-on time of BAP is ludicrous as well. In all cases this is paramount to good Lurming.

Hardpoints are the name of the game, and valuing TAG (which takes up a precious self-defense energy slot) over Artemis (which costs nothing other than top speed and possibly 1 DHS) is rediculous as well. if you can fit BOTH, by all means do so....If forced into a choice, ALWAYS pick Artemis.

Modules, at minimun (along with MANDATORY BAP) should be Adv. Target Decay + Advanced Sensor Range.

I strongly caution all readers to dis-regard all advice from Shadey on LRMs....it's simply bad advice.

Edited by Mr 144, 13 December 2013 - 08:37 AM.