57 replies to this topic

[Crazy Horse 3059]

It is a simple solution to the double gauss and ac40 builds.

Make AC20 and Gauss rifles a "one per" weapon (like ecm and ams).

It's a simple solution so its a simple thread.

fin.

[Ngamok]

?

[Sybreed]

Ngamok, on 09 December 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

?

my thoughts exactly

[Draxist]

while an interesting thought, doesn't quite fit in with how the game mechanics work, or how PGI wants this game to feel (as I take it). also by doing so you actually limit other mechs not yet implemented that are cannon (take the devastator for instance).

further more, to do such a thing would end up getting a call to nerf all big weapon groups such as ERLL LL LPL PPC ERPPC LRM20 and potentially other AC's just by virtue of having "too many" according to which ever vocal group finally gets through the shouting masses.

no, best to leave it be, its a play-style that is starting to go fringe more than core (people getting bored with it). will it still be there: yes. However I have to agree with other posters that some particular "cheese" builds seem to exist only in certain ELO ranks, and tend to only be good at one thing and that thing only.

besides, teamwork is OP....that still needs a nerf

[Mystere]

Crazy Horse 3059, on 09 December 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

It is a simple solution to the double gauss and ac40 builds.

Make AC20 and Gauss rifles a "one per" weapon (like ecm and ams).

It's a simple solution so its a simple thread.

fin.

Oh! Look! It's another "I got killed by XXX, nerf XXX NAO!!!" post masquerading as a "suggestion".

Edited by Mystere, 09 December 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Selbatrim]

This has been resolved many times except PGI doesn't like the solution:

Introduce skew on weapons with skew increasing based on number of weapons when alpha fired.

Pinpoint damage is the problem, not how many weapons you have of a particular type. Ghost heat is a band aid solution to avoid the problem.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Crazy Horse 3059, on 09 December 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

It is a simple solution to the double gauss and ac40 builds.

Make AC20 and Gauss rifles a "one per" weapon (like ecm and ams).

It's a simple solution so its a simple thread.

fin.

Why do they need a "solution?"

[Scromboid]

K2s need jumpjets and ECM.

That is the solution.

Edited by Scromboid, 10 December 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Crazy Horse 3059, on 09 December 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

It is a simple solution to the double gauss and ac40 builds.

Make AC20 and Gauss rifles a "one per" weapon (like ecm and ams).

It's a simple solution so its a simple thread.

fin.

Nope. There are to many builds yet to come that have 2 (or more) Gauss and enough that AC40 is fine.

[Crazy Horse 3059]

Ngamok, on 09 December 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

?

Sybreed, on 09 December 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

my thoughts exactly

Bear with me here.

Draxist, on 09 December 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

while an interesting thought, doesn't quite fit in with how the game mechanics work, or how PGI wants this game to feel (as I take it). also by doing so you actually limit other mechs not yet implemented that are cannon (take the devastator for instance).

further more, to do such a thing would end up getting a call to nerf all big weapon groups such as ERLL LL LPL PPC ERPPC LRM20 and potentially other AC's just by virtue of having "too many" according to which ever vocal group finally gets through the shouting masses.

no, best to leave it be, its a play-style that is starting to go fringe more than core (people getting bored with it). will it still be there: yes. However I have to agree with other posters that some particular "cheese" builds seem to exist only in certain ELO ranks, and tend to only be good at one thing and that thing only.

besides, teamwork is OP....that still needs a nerf

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Nope. There are to many builds yet to come that have 2 (or more) Gauss and enough that AC40 is fine.

I don't think that PGI could stand behind the "we care about cannon" arguement at all IMHO. They do what they see fit, as they should since it is their game, but when players (both paying and nonpaying) tell that what we as a collective would like to see they simply brush it off. I also don't think that they need to NERF anything if they were to do this change. The gauss/ac20 would still be just as deadly but it would help push players thing about the larger picture and build a more well-rounded and team oriented mech. I do not suggest changing damage to anything atm. To me damage values seem to be in a decent place for the time being.

Mystere, on 09 December 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

Oh! Look! It's another "I got killed by XXX, nerf XXX NAO!!!" post masquerading as a "suggestion".

Not quite, but they sure do annoy the hell out of me when they are on my team and are worthless.

Selbatrim, on 09 December 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

This has been resolved many times except PGI doesn't like the solution:

Introduce skew on weapons with skew increasing based on number of weapons when alpha fired.

Pinpoint damage is the problem, not how many weapons you have of a particular type. Ghost heat is a band aid solution to avoid the problem.

A viable solution may have been posted before, but I may have (more than likely) missed it.

Lukoi, on 09 December 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Why do they need a "solution?"

I feel that it would prevent wasted tonnage on PUG drops those who feel the need to take up a spot on the team. All those players seem to want is that one big punch that will take out a mech in one or two shots. Of course we all want to kill those big stompy robots, but wasting a 65+ tons on one trick ponies are no use to the team when they have about ~30 shots before being a stick.

[Endarius]

I think the glaring weaknesses of both of these types of cheeser builds should be pretty obvious. You currently cannot place dual gauss or ac40 on anything except a Jagermech or a Catapult. This severely limits amunition and also doesn't allow for very high mobility if you want to have any armor at all. AC20s have a very short effective range, and Gauss Rifles are not terribly effective up close. I.E. adjust your tactics. If you yourself are using an un-balanced cheeser build and get fragged by another cheeser who just happens to be your kryptonite, then that isn't a flaw in game design, it's a flaw in brain design. I use balanced builds with multiple weapon types with my chosen medium, heavy, and assault chassis and I do just fine against Jagers with a pair if AC20s. In fact I usually kill them in a straight fight. IF they even get to the party before half their buddies are dead. Stop whining and acquire some skill and adaptability I say.

Edited by Endarius, 10 December 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Crazy Horse 3059]

I know that both builds are terrible and they are great targets. I have no issues going toe to toe with them. Do they kill me sometimes? Yeah sure they do. Do I kill them sometimes? I make sure that I do.

I run multiple builds that are balanced and help out my lance/team mates. No one in my team runs these ac40/2x gauss builds and we all do just fine. Now when we come up on 2 or 3 of these jagers then yeah of course we get a little ticked as much as the next guy. I'd rather run into one than have one on my team. To me, they are a waste of a team mate. That is all.

Edited by Crazy Horse 3059, 10 December 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Selbatrim, on 09 December 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

This has been resolved many times except PGI doesn't like the solution:

Introduce skew on weapons with skew increasing based on number of weapons when alpha fired.

Pinpoint damage is the problem, not how many weapons you have of a particular type. Ghost heat is a band aid solution to avoid the problem.

I really don't think you've followed the problem back to its root. Gameplay elements can't be problematic in a vacuum, absent any mandate from God ("thou shalt not dispense with cones of fire"). They can only be problematic by having a detrimental effect on gameplay. Until we agree on what that detrimental effect is specifically as well as why it's problematic we can't really have a constructive discussion.

Here's how I see it: the root of the problem is that it's possible for a properly built mech to frontload damage to the point that they can neutralize most opponents pretty much at will. A boomjager, gaussapult, or whatever else can blow the ears off a catapult, de-hunch a hunchback, etc, so the game pretty much inevitably because a race to dump as much pinpoint damage as possible. Any non-pinpoint oriented mechs are either highly situational, or are viable in inverse proportion to the steadiness of their opponents aim. When played by people trying to be as effective as possible, the game pretty much inevitably becomes one dimensional.

Now, I agree that making it impossible for a bunch of weapons fired at once to hit the same spot would stop PPC snipers or boomjagers from being able to take down enemies at will. The problem is that it runs a very real risk of being an overbroad solution that undermines itself in the same way ghost heat does.

More importantly, it's not the only way to solve the problem. I've seen a tremendous number of people suggestion some combination of skew and cone of fire. There have even been a few threads that basically amounted to "totally remove aiming." I've seen fairly little discussion (at least recently) of attacking the other end of the problem: that the mechs die to quickly to focused fire. What about increasing armor across the board, but particularly for the lighter mechs, so lights and mediums aren't so easy to insta-gib? What about having armor types that are specialized against certain weapon types? What about tweaking the values for ghost heat so that it doesn't gimp builds that weren't a problem in the first place, like hunchback 4Ps, leaving players with more alternatives?

That last one especially is basically tailor-made for trying out tweaks via the test servers. That this hasn't been their main use since the test servers were introduced is absolutely mind boggling to me, and I think it's a fair larger impediment to achieving balance than any game mechanics.

[Ngamok]

To be honest, dual gauss builds aren't as popular as dual AC/20 builds. Sure you see them from time to time in the 3 chassis that can handle them. But let's be honest here, they are specialized builds and effective at certain ranges whereas the 2s and both 5s have better overall rof and range and link up now better with their PPC friends.

[Green Mamba]

A 4 AC 20 Annihilator?

[Malzel]

Currently, 2x Gauss and 2x AC/20 builds are overspecialized mechs that are powerful as long as no one exploits the glaring weaknesses in their design. Sure, it sucked to get smeared by one, but there's nothing really "wrong" with them, now that dual AC/20s can only be alpha'ed once before a shutdown.

There will be problems, though, if mechs come out that can mount these combos and still have tonnage to mount other weapons, more ammo, and what have you, because that takes away the glaring weaknesses that currently "balance out" these overspecialized builds. If the Devs have any sense, the Devastator and Annihilator will never see daylight in this game.

[WarHippy]

To hell with this thread I want my Devastator and King Crab!

[Ngamok]

Malzel, on 10 December 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Currently, 2x Gauss and 2x AC/20 builds are overspecialized mechs that are powerful as long as no one exploits the glaring weaknesses in their design. Sure, it sucked to get smeared by one, but there's nothing really "wrong" with them, now that dual AC/20s can only be alpha'ed once before a shutdown.

There will be problems, though, if mechs come out that can mount these combos and still have tonnage to mount other weapons, more ammo, and what have you, because that takes away the glaring weaknesses that currently "balance out" these overspecialized builds. If the Devs have any sense, the Devastator and Annihilator will never see daylight in this game.

3rd alpha shuts me down on AC/20s. Then it's every alpha after that if I keep shooting.

[PropagandaWar]

I still think convergence and weapon slots like MW4 would solve quite a few problems. A gauss weighing in at 16 tons mounted on a arm should take some time to sync up with the rest of the weapons (Arm lock or no). Then there is also recoil. Why we get zero recoil in the game is beyond me. I mean it certainly seems easy enough to shake us around when a mech lands near us. Lasers I could understand but they are Dot weapons so zero recoil on them is fine. So many ways to choke out pinpoint except on the rare perfect shot, but hey what do we know.

[Malzel]

Ngamok, on 10 December 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

3rd alpha shuts me down on AC/20s. Then it's every alpha after that if I keep shooting.

Really? I don't own a Jagerbomb, but I'd thought I'd seen while spectating that an alpha of the buggers put you up to 60-70% heat after penalties. (I assume every dual AC/20 build uses the standard 10 heatsinks.)

Either way, I haven't had a problem with them since the heat penalties. They still hurt, but they either chain fire or space their alphas far apart because they don't want to overheat. Something that could carry that a boatload of heatsinks or other weapons in addition to the dual 20s or dual Gauss would completely dominate the game, in my estimate.

Edited by Malzel, 10 December 2013 - 01:19 PM.