97 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

I start by a rough idea of what weapons I want and what engine I want. Add the weapons first and then the engine and check the tonnage, is there enough for heatsinks+ammo? If not tweak the weapons&engine a little bit. When I'm happy with that, I start adding heatsinks and ammo. When it's done, it's time to tweak the armor if I'm not happy with either my ammor or heatsinks. Can I shave off .5 tons off my arms&head&legs for one more heatsink? If yes, do that.

Save, drop, see how it does, iterate according to your experiences. This is pretty much how I play MWO, always searching, always tweaking. If I find the optimal build for the weapons I want, it quickly gets boring and I move on to a new mech.

[Drakari]

I usually start with "I have to put a build in this mech that I couldn't put into a different variant" otherwise I feel like I'm wasting that variant. That's why my SHD-2H(P) has an AC/20 and 2 MGs; just an AC/20 means I could have used any other Shadowhawk, and maybe even done it better. It probably still WOULD be better to go with a different variant and bring a second energy weapon instead, but what I needed was a 2H build so I made a build that would only fit the 2H.

I also am rather fond of "joke" builds. TDR-5SS has 7 energy hardpoints? 7 PPCs. Is it effective? Not really. But it is fun to play and even more fun to watch people get all confused about what killed them.

More generally speaking, I always start in Smurfy. I might make small changes to things like ammo, armor, or backup weapons without checking first, but the general idea ALWAYS starts there. The general idea also always starts with Endo-Steel and Double Heat Sinks. There are VERY few builds that can really benefit from removing either of those; the heaviest of Assaults might need crit slots more than tons, but ES scales well with weight up to the point when there are literally no crit slots left. DHS are almost entirely a straight upgrade, and bigger mechs can put more of them inside the engine so it's pretty much always worth getting. Ferro-Fibrous is usually not worth it; lights often have spare crit slots, but the C-Bill cost isn't very proportional to the savings.

After that, I usually max the armor on any component I'm using and completely strip the armor from ones I'm not. If I have tonnage left over I'll put some back on the stripped sections, and if I need more tonnage I will take a little bit off the arms or legs.

Next, choose the defining characteristic. This is usually the weapons, and once I finish putting in weapons and equipment I'll shove in the biggest engine that fits. Sometimes I would rather start with the engine, Lights in particular are usually given the biggest engine by default and never lowered without good reason, and occasionally I feel inclined to shove an XL 400 into a Battlemaster so I can call it a Battle Faster (Or I would if I had an XL 400, could rename mechs, and had actually gotten to work on building my Battlemasters).

After that is done (and I make sure there is no empty tonnage; I'd rather go with .47 fewer tons of armor than go with .03 tons of empty space. Anything less than .03 is considered "close enough") I take it out for testing. Make changes or scrap the build altogether accordingly.

[Buckminster]

Victor Morson, on 27 December 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Part of your problem was bothering to waste a seperate group on MGs.
Most of your problem was taking MGs at all! heh

Keeping the MGs as their own group actually has a couple reasons behind it. It's the only weapon I can constantly fire without generating heat, and with it's short range, I don't want to tie them in to the other groups to avoid wasting ammo.

As for MGs being a waste in the first place - you're probably right on that. I generally don't use them, but always read enough in the forums about their "crit magic" that I come back and try them every so often. I'm also planning on running all of my Phoenix mechs as 'super stock'.

[Budor]

Buy mech. Strip of all components. Buy DHS (+ 9/10 times endo). Max armor. Redistribute front/rear armor. Lower leg armor. Fit weapons. Fit Engine. Check how many heatsinks fit with the engine and weapons i selected if:

ok = finetune armor, fit modules, paintjob, cockpit item, launch

not ok = rethink weapons loadout to keep desired engine/speed for mech

[1453 R]

Victor is a classic Spike - performance is vastly more important than personality to highly competitive players. They don't care if they win with their 'Mechs - they care if they win, end sentence, and they wish to continue to do so no matter how stiff the competition gets. That's where his arguments come from, and why he gets so fed up so quickly with everyone else.

Victor, if you haven't already, I actually recommend you look up the Spike/Johnny/Timmy player characterization system proposed in Magic: the Gathering a good while back. It helps, a lot, when players with different ideologies start clashing head to head if they have as solid a grasp as they can manage of what the other players' ideologies might be. You're a classic 100% Spike, but a lot of the times I've seen you arguing with folks - prior to leaving for a few months, anyways - it seemed to be because you were arguing with Johnnies.

To put it short and sweet: to players like me, winning isn't winning if I had to steal someone else's design right down to the last point of armor to do it. Hyper-optimized, cookie-cutter meta-chasing builds with no personality or soul actually have negative appeal to Johnnies - our greatest pleasure in the game isn't necessarily victory for its own sake, but in finding ways to win with our own style, our own choices, and in ways nobody expects. Winning a match with a tournament-spec Highlander is not a source of fun or pride, it's a source of shame.

Ye're never going to convince a Johnny otherwise, either. Just not in our make-up to disregard everything else for the sake of victory. If I can't win with my own builds in my own style, then I would, truly and honestly, rather take the loss.

Anyways. On topic. Ish.

Most of the time when I'm working on a new design, I do what everyone else has suggested. I hit up Smurfy and fiddle with it till it looks about right. Usually start with the basic chassis, maxed armor (shaved to the nearest half-ton) and whatever engine I figure I'm going to be using in it. Basically, I start with a drivable 'Mech that just has no weapons yet. There are times when I'll try and work a build around a specific weapon, but most of the time I find it more beneficial to start with an engine. ...mostly because weapons cost half a million C-bills for the most part, whilst the XL engines I use almost exclusively cost...more than that @_@. The one is easier to accommodate than the other.

Battlefield testing usually throws the initial Smurfy schematic out the window, but that's okay. After a while you start to figure out what you'll want on a 'Mech more or less just by looking at it., and you'll only really struggle with 'Mechs that have half a dozen viable configurations. Or which you really, really want to like, but can't figure out a good, viable build for, LIKE THAT FRIGGIN' SDH-2D(P). Dual AC/2s over SRM launchers is hilarious and great fun, but...

Yes, Victor. I currently have two AC/2s, two SRM-4s and one SRM-2 on my Shadow Hawk. I don't have anything in its one piddling beam slot, and it's got an XL engine in it and all three of its jump jets. I can already see the vein ticking in your forehead. Might want to see a doctor about that, actually...

[Victor Morson]

Just as a sidenote, I've never had a problem with people driving sub-par 'mechs, not even on these forums. I only take issue when they claim that they can perform as well as (or outperform) a properly setup 'mech to new players, because that's blatant misinformation.

Long/short:

OK: "I like driving this Awesome because I get a kick out of it." Go for it!
NOT OK: "You should totally buy an Awesome because my [Insert bad build here] is SO great!"

That's why I'm so vocal around here. That's a key difference. Screw around builds are fine.

For the record, I own an Awesome. Partly because I love it in TT. Yeah it gathers dust, but sometimes I'll take it out for a spin. I'd never recommend one to a new player!

I hope that clears up my perspective on the whole thing, really. When people jump in and start claiming non-Endo designs are somehow on par with a meta build, well..

PS: I love little customizations. I tweak almost every meta 'mech I get: I just start with the top tier meta builds, then modify then slightly to fit my style. But I don't go to the last point of armor on it. I've added or changed things more than once, but I keep the core concept intact. Also I'm totally prone to experiment - every weapon I've smack talked I've "walked a mile in it's shoes" before doing so.. not to mention I readily talk about LRM strategies, which are the black sheep of high level play.

[Victor Morson]

sneeking, on 27 December 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

victor has lots to say ( a few of us do ) he takes it more seriously than most

I will tell you to lrm boat pure in an a1c or go 2xuac5 with no laser backup in a yenlo lol

he will tell you not to follow my bad advice...

Likely the case, heh. Mostly because 2x UAC/5 can be done on a Shadow Hawk with absolutely none of the Yen-Lo drawbacks.

Again like I said earlier, if that floats your boat.. go for it. I'm not bothered by bad builds. I just want to try to offer a counter viewpoint to a lot of the bad advice that gets given to newbies here.

Remember, if someone opts to give your setup a shot, they're spending real world dollars that could have been used on an Ilya.

[1453 R]

Obviously my Dragons are never going to perform as well as a tournament-spec Highlander. I wouldn't ask them to. Frankly, I understand better than anyone who's never gone and mastered the durned things just why folks wouldn't take them even over their actual competition in the form of Quickdraws, Centurions, and Shadow Hawks. Matter of fact, now that I have my Shadow Hawks I don't do a lot of Dragon piloting myself anymore. Not that my Shawks are any better at the moment, but they'll get there, and as I've waited literally more than half my life to pilot a Shadow Hawk in a MechWarrior game...yeah. I didn't buy the Saber 'Mechs because Piranha pissed me off back then (though I probably should have, those Wolverines look sick), but god damn those Shawks bring a tear to my eye...

Anyways.

The main thing you and I disagree with on this point, Victor, besides everything ( ), is that I feel like a new player should be steered into getting a flexible chassis that can try out a wide profusion of different builds and weapons, rather than steered into a high-tonnage, high-dollar metachaser build they probably can't use properly yet anyways. I honestly feel like an SDH-5M is the new HBK-4SP - the perfect choice of starter 'Mech. You can play it as anything you damn well please - heavy ballistics, heavy energy in the right arm (not optimal of course, but if a new player wants to put a PPC in their 5M's arm to try it out, THEY TOTALLY CAN), the default LRM-heavy loadout, reconfigure it for SRMs...it's amazingly versatile, it also teaches them the phenomenal utility of jump jets, and a 275XL is a perfectly acceptable engine to have on hand for a variety of other builds. Not quite as excellent as a 300XL, of course, but hey.

That way the rookie player can work with a 'Mech that can dance to any tune they want, try out anything they want to experiment with, and when they finally start learning the ropes and settling on more competitive builds, well ya know what? The Shadow Hawk can do those, too! It's by no means a bad chassis to master out in one's rookie days, and if it's not as viable in bleeding-edge competition as a Highlander...well, nobody new-new is going to be in any of those competitions anyways, eh?

Edited by 1453 R, 29 December 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Buckminster, on 27 December 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

Keeping the MGs as their own group actually has a couple reasons behind it. It's the only weapon I can constantly fire without generating heat, and with it's short range, I don't want to tie them in to the other groups to avoid wasting ammo.

As for MGs being a waste in the first place - you're probably right on that. I generally don't use them, but always read enough in the forums about their "crit magic" that I come back and try them every so often. I'm also planning on running all of my Phoenix mechs as 'super stock'.

Ah, I see. Yeah, there was a brief window when they were actually kind of useful, but then they went from a little OP to a HARD nerf and have been junk since.

The problem is actually with any weapon that can "keep firing" with low heat - it means you stay on-target the whole time instead of going through the evasive period you get with longer recycles, and ultimately ends up costing you far more than it helps. High damage, slow recycle gets favored a lot for a reason.

The first thing with AC/5s is learning to control them into quick bursts of damage and not get tempted by their refire to keep pouring it on.

[Victor Morson]

1453 R, on 28 December 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

The main thing you and I disagree with on this point, Victor, besides everything ( ), is that I feel like a new player should be steered into getting a flexible chassis that can try out a wide profusion of different builds and weapons, rather than steered into a high-tonnage, high-dollar metachaser build they probably can't use properly yet anyways.

Shadow Hawk price tag for the 2D2 and 5J: Around 4 million cbills.
Popular configs:

• 1 ER PPC, 1 AC/20
  
• 1 AC/20, 2 ML
  
• 4 Streak 2, 2 MPL
  
• 2 AC/5 1 PPC
  
• 2 PPC, 1 UAC/5
  
• 3 AC/2
  
• 3 UAC/5
  
• 3 Streak/2 2 AC/5
  
• 1 LRM15, 1 LRM10, 1 LRM5+Artemis, TAG
  
• 1 Gauss, 2 ER PPC

1453 R, on 28 December 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

That way the rookie player can work with a 'Mech that can dance to any tune they want, try out anything they want to experiment with, and when they finally start learning the ropes and settling on more competitive builds, well ya know what? The Shadow Hawk can do those, too! It's by no means a bad chassis to master out in one's rookie days, and if it's not as viable in bleeding-edge competition as a Highlander...well, nobody new-new is going to be in any of those competitions anyways, eh?

Wait I.. I think this started out like you were going to defend Hunchbacks as a starter chassis and then it sounds like now we're in total agreement. Shadow Hawks are stellar 'mechs to pickup out of the gate, learn the game on, and use right into the competitive levels of the game.

So yeah, +1 to that.

[sneeking]

iv looked at them but they don't reach out n say buy me ( shadow hawks I mean ) is it the hardpoint layouts or just the look ?

they certainly don't have that look like hemi cudda has, sure they may handle well but some people want the cudda

iv had three empty bays for weeks now but there's just nothing I realy want to buy, its a problem !

Edited by sneeking, 29 December 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[sneeking]

Victor Morson, on 28 December 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Ah, I see. Yeah, there was a brief window when they were actually kind of useful, but then they went from a little OP to a HARD nerf and have been junk since.

The problem is actually with any weapon that can "keep firing" with low heat - it means you stay on-target the whole time instead of going through the evasive period you get with longer recycles, and ultimately ends up costing you far more than it helps. High damage, slow recycle gets favored a lot for a reason.

The first thing with AC/5s is learning to control them into quick bursts of damage and not get tempted by their refire to keep pouring it on.

this I like and this is why I like yenlo 2xuac5 with no backup lasers, the weapon bursts and inevitable jamms keep you away from that white line fever where you cant take your eyes off target ( because that gets you killed )

[1453 R]

Heh, yeah. No, I used to think along the same lines as everyone else and figured the 4SP was the optimal starter 'Mech, but even before the Shadow Hawks had finished coming out I'd more or less switched to Centurions as the better idea. Now that the Shadow Hawks are readily available off a Cadet bonus, they do everything both the Hunchies and the Centurions do except they do it faster and with jump jets. Wolverines might be another idea, they seem to fit in a similar vein but with moar jump jets (except that one weird variant), but man...Wolverines just aren't Shadow Hawks.

Sneeking: Shadow Hawks are sort of the ultimate expression of the medium 'Mech. They can do pretty much every job that every other medium can do (with the exception of Cicadas, but Cicadas have long since been considered to be overfed lights anyways), and that left-shoulder autocannon is pretty much the most ideally positioned hardpoint on any 'Mech ever. They're fast, agile, and can generally carry most any loadout you damn well please. Enough so that I've been having a lot of trouble figuring out exactly which loadouts to take on my own

[bowlie]

Usualy start with weapons. To me, the firepower is what defines the mech, and determines what role it fills. So, I chuck in the primary weapons first, bump up the armor and then add endo steel, ammo, secondary weapons and an ams if I want. After that I chuck in the biggest engine I can fit in it.

[Fang01]

1453 R, on 29 December 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Heh, yeah. No, I used to think along the same lines as everyone else and figured the 4SP was the optimal starter 'Mech, but even before the Shadow Hawks had finished coming out I'd more or less switched to Centurions as the better idea. Now that the Shadow Hawks are readily available off a Cadet bonus, they do everything both the Hunchies and the Centurions do except they do it faster and with jump jets. Wolverines might be another idea, they seem to fit in a similar vein but with moar jump jets (except that one weird variant), but man...Wolverines just aren't Shadow Hawks.

Sneeking: Shadow Hawks are sort of the ultimate expression of the medium 'Mech. They can do pretty much every job that every other medium can do (with the exception of Cicadas, but Cicadas have long since been considered to be overfed lights anyways), and that left-shoulder autocannon is pretty much the most ideally positioned hardpoint on any 'Mech ever. They're fast, agile, and can generally carry most any loadout you damn well please. Enough so that I've been having a lot of trouble figuring out exactly which loadouts to take on my own

The Wolvie 6R has replaced everything as my goto money maker/workhorse. In my eyes its the perfect medium and excels in wolfpack strategies

1453 R, on 27 December 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Victor is a classic Spike - performance is vastly more important than personality to highly competitive players. They don't care if they win with their 'Mechs - they care if they win, end sentence, and they wish to continue to do so no matter how stiff the competition gets. That's where his arguments come from, and why he gets so fed up so quickly with everyone else.

Victor, if you haven't already, I actually recommend you look up the Spike/Johnny/Timmy player characterization system proposed in Magic: the Gathering a good while back. It helps, a lot, when players with different ideologies start clashing head to head if they have as solid a grasp as they can manage of what the other players' ideologies might be. You're a classic 100% Spike, but a lot of the times I've seen you arguing with folks - prior to leaving for a few months, anyways - it seemed to be because you were arguing with Johnnies.

To put it short and sweet: to players like me, winning isn't winning if I had to steal someone else's design right down to the last point of armor to do it. Hyper-optimized, cookie-cutter meta-chasing builds with no personality or soul actually have negative appeal to Johnnies - our greatest pleasure in the game isn't necessarily victory for its own sake, but in finding ways to win with our own style, our own choices, and in ways nobody expects. Winning a match with a tournament-spec Highlander is not a source of fun or pride, it's a source of shame.

Ye're never going to convince a Johnny otherwise, either. Just not in our make-up to disregard everything else for the sake of victory. If I can't win with my own builds in my own style, then I would, truly and honestly, rather take the loss.

Anyways. On topic. Ish.

Most of the time when I'm working on a new design, I do what everyone else has suggested. I hit up Smurfy and fiddle with it till it looks about right. Usually start with the basic chassis, maxed armor (shaved to the nearest half-ton) and whatever engine I figure I'm going to be using in it. Basically, I start with a drivable 'Mech that just has no weapons yet. There are times when I'll try and work a build around a specific weapon, but most of the time I find it more beneficial to start with an engine. ...mostly because weapons cost half a million C-bills for the most part, whilst the XL engines I use almost exclusively cost...more than that @_@. The one is easier to accommodate than the other.

Battlefield testing usually throws the initial Smurfy schematic out the window, but that's okay. After a while you start to figure out what you'll want on a 'Mech more or less just by looking at it., and you'll only really struggle with 'Mechs that have half a dozen viable configurations. Or which you really, really want to like, but can't figure out a good, viable build for, LIKE THAT FRIGGIN' SDH-2D(P). Dual AC/2s over SRM launchers is hilarious and great fun, but...

Yes, Victor. I currently have two AC/2s, two SRM-4s and one SRM-2 on my Shadow Hawk. I don't have anything in its one piddling beam slot, and it's got an XL engine in it and all three of its jump jets. I can already see the vein ticking in your forehead. Might want to see a doctor about that, actually...

I'd never heard of that scale before. Seems I'm a classic johnny. Probably explains the general level of dislike I've had for the raven 3l I've been grinding

Victor Morson, on 27 December 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Likely the case, heh. Mostly because 2x UAC/5 can be done on a Shadow Hawk with absolutely none of the Yen-Lo drawbacks.

Again like I said earlier, if that floats your boat.. go for it. I'm not bothered by bad builds. I just want to try to offer a counter viewpoint to a lot of the bad advice that gets given to newbies here.

Remember, if someone opts to give your setup a shot, they're spending real world dollars that could have been used on an Ilya.

Two will fit? For some reason I was convinced that wouldnt work... Maybe i counted wrong


I saw another quote I wanted to hit up about shelving a dragon and comparing it to a metalander. I'll agree that they cant be directly compared, esp when the popular comparison plays directly to the meta build's strengths. If something like my flame caught one alone and up close. I wouldnt bet against the dragon. Then again, I rarely see dragon builds that get as aggressive with armor and engines as I do and I'll agree that they are generally easy pickins unless the pilot has a clue

Edited by Khajja nar Jatargk, 31 December 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Victor Morson]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 31 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Two will fit? For some reason I was convinced that wouldnt work... Maybe i counted wrong

You have to run standard to do twin UAC/5s, but it's doable for sure:
Twin Ultra

You can jam some Streaks on if you take the speed down and want a secondary gun. Personally I'm a big fan of 2 AC/5 3 Streak/2 for pugs. Solid setup.

While it lacks the Wang's backup guns, it's far harder disabling that nice high mounted chest UAC bank, to say the least!

Edited by Victor Morson, 31 December 2013 - 12:40 PM.

[JediPanther]

My best method is simple. It must be combat effective. I change loadouts every few matches untill i find one that works for me and does fair amount of damage. My atlas d is made to counder other atlas d's assuming they have the ac 20 and lrm. Mine has two lbx and streak searms. Alot of the time it gets lasered and lrmed down but the times it gets within range, its a monster.

[bowlie]

1453 R, on 27 December 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Victor is a classic Spike - performance is vastly more important than personality to highly competitive players. They don't care if they win with their 'Mechs - they care if they win, end sentence, and they wish to continue to do so no matter how stiff the competition gets. That's where his arguments come from, and why he gets so fed up so quickly with everyone else.

Victor, if you haven't already, I actually recommend you look up the Spike/Johnny/Timmy player characterization system proposed in Magic: the Gathering a good while back. It helps, a lot, when players with different ideologies start clashing head to head if they have as solid a grasp as they can manage of what the other players' ideologies might be. You're a classic 100% Spike, but a lot of the times I've seen you arguing with folks - prior to leaving for a few months, anyways - it seemed to be because you were arguing with Johnnies.

To put it short and sweet: to players like me, winning isn't winning if I had to steal someone else's design right down to the last point of armor to do it. Hyper-optimized, cookie-cutter meta-chasing builds with no personality or soul actually have negative appeal to Johnnies - our greatest pleasure in the game isn't necessarily victory for its own sake, but in finding ways to win with our own style, our own choices, and in ways nobody expects. Winning a match with a tournament-spec Highlander is not a source of fun or pride, it's a source of shame.

Ye're never going to convince a Johnny otherwise, either. Just not in our make-up to disregard everything else for the sake of victory. If I can't win with my own builds in my own style, then I would, truly and honestly, rather take the loss.

Anyways. On topic. Ish.

Most of the time when I'm working on a new design, I do what everyone else has suggested. I hit up Smurfy and fiddle with it till it looks about right. Usually start with the basic chassis, maxed armor (shaved to the nearest half-ton) and whatever engine I figure I'm going to be using in it. Basically, I start with a drivable 'Mech that just has no weapons yet. There are times when I'll try and work a build around a specific weapon, but most of the time I find it more beneficial to start with an engine. ...mostly because weapons cost half a million C-bills for the most part, whilst the XL engines I use almost exclusively cost...more than that @_@. The one is easier to accommodate than the other.

Battlefield testing usually throws the initial Smurfy schematic out the window, but that's okay. After a while you start to figure out what you'll want on a 'Mech more or less just by looking at it., and you'll only really struggle with 'Mechs that have half a dozen viable configurations. Or which you really, really want to like, but can't figure out a good, viable build for, LIKE THAT FRIGGIN' SDH-2D(P). Dual AC/2s over SRM launchers is hilarious and great fun, but...

Yes, Victor. I currently have two AC/2s, two SRM-4s and one SRM-2 on my Shadow Hawk. I don't have anything in its one piddling beam slot, and it's got an XL engine in it and all three of its jump jets. I can already see the vein ticking in your forehead. Might want to see a doctor about that, actually...

Interesting. Im a johnny/spike at heart apparently. For me, the beauty is in creating something effective, but not in just using the most effective build. Take my 4uac5 jager. Its not the best build, but the satisfaction from taking out an ilya or atlas head to head is great.

Edited by bowlie, 02 January 2014 - 04:46 AM.