116 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I disagree. Machine guns were actually quite good in horrendous quantities. Pirahnas were vicious little mechs.

And the SRM2 was bad, but it also did 2-4 damage for 2+ tons. While an AC/2 only did 2 damage for 7+ tons. Even despite the AC/2s better range, I would say the SRM2 was a better weapon overall. Although there was little reason to use an SRM2 instead of an SRM4 or 6.

if you have to use 12+ of a weapon It Sucks!

I left out the AC2 cause I'd be a hypocrite. I did not go a game that I crit the heck out of the enemy team with one. I killed a Battlemaster and an Atlas with ammo crits this was using the the random crit rules from MaxTech. You would hate me and AC2 on TT!

[Khobai]

Quote

if you have to use 12+ of a weapon It Sucks!

Tell that to the nova

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Tell that to the nova

I have. many times over the years! Killed it dead with 3 Gauss and 2 ERPPCs before they could reach me!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 December 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

vnlk65n, on 18 December 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

You are really taking it for granted that mixed builds should be/are/ever were good.

Nope. I don't see this as a given. Some mixed builds are okay.
I firmly believe that specialization is usually the better choice. Having a mix of long and short range weapons for example I don't htink works that great. Whenever you're forced to fight a specialist in his role, you're inferior, and you don't really know what your speciality is and have trouble knowing where on the battlefield you're best on. If you're a sniper, you know you must fight at range, if you're a brawler, you know you must get close. THat is independent of the enemy which you just don't know beforehand.

But theoretically you could have a mixed weapon build that is all long range or a mixed weapon build that is all short range.
In the table top, having an ER PPC and an ER LL is not inherently worse or better than having two of either (assuming you're not wasting tonnage and you're getting something useful for the weight differences).

But in M:WO, you can alpha-strike and group-fire two ER PPCs or two ER LLs, but group-firing an ER PPC together with an ER LL only works if the enemy isn't moving, and event then these two weapons have different firing cycles, so you are likely reaching the full potential of both weapons.

If there was no group-fire or no convergence, then mixing two weapons with different lead characteristics wouldn't be so bad, the biggest challenge is considering the difference between the two leads correctly each time (which is not optimal, but it's not as bad as needing an extra second or so for your attacks then a "boat" needs.)
That still leaves the rate of fire difference.

If it was me, I would standardize the rate of fires in 3-4 categories and ensure they are compatible so you can have stable "weapon rotations" (like you have power rotations in MMOs).
Say, 1 second, 2 seconds, seconds and 8 seconds cooldowns. Now you get less syncing problems.

Next step would be to standardize projectile speeds.
Hit-Scan (Lasers), Fast (PPC, AC/2, AC/5, Gauss), Medium (AC/10, AC/20, Narc), Slow (SRMs, LRMs).

If you want to get fancy, Clan weapons might use slightly different speeds to make mixing Clan and IS tech more difficult.
Heck, different rate of fires might also be a possibility (I might give CLan mechs faster ROFs in general - Clan Warriors are bred for war and of course they can aim faster and thus shoot more often than IS mechwarriors), which could cause interesting challenges when Clan and IS fight - if your enemies weapon cycles don't sync with your own, figuring out when the enemy will be torso twisting for defense and when he'll look in your direction to take shots can be more difficult and require more compromises in utilizing your ROF.)

I don't think you can remove all synergy effects from boating. But you can lower them enough that mono-cultural weapon builds are not quite as necessary.

[Khobai]

As long as customization exists, mixed builds wont work. The best solution would be to have a stock mech only mode. Basically you would choose a weight class and the game would assign you a random stock mech of that weight class. That would prevent any single stock mech from dominating.

By mixed builds I mean builds that are complete frankenbuilds... like having three or four weapons that have absolutely no synergy with eachother whatsoever. Like a large laser, autocannon, LRM build or something like that. These types of builds are actually quite common in stock battletech, just not in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 18 December 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

As long as customization exists, mixed builds wont work. The best solution would be to have a stock mech only mode. Basically you would choose a weight class and the game would assign you a random stock mech of that weight class. That would prevent any single stock mech from dominating.

I will have to disagree. I do just fine in my Mixed builds, I get my fair share of kills and that is proof enough for me.

[Khobai]

Quote

I will have to disagree. I do just fine in my Mixed builds, I get my fair share of kills and that is proof enough for me.

By mixed builds I dont mean PPC/Autocannon builds. I mean truly mixed builds... like large laser/autocannon/lrms. Weapons that have absolutely no synergy at all with eachother.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

By mixed builds I dont mean PPC/Autocannon builds. I mean truly mixed builds... like large laser/autocannon/lrms. Weapons that have absolutely no synergy at all with eachother.

AC20, 2 large, 2 Medium, or AC20 One Large 2 Medium and some SRMs. Was thinking of going 2 LRM10, 2 SRM and some lasers on my Kintaro. I have a Shadow hawk with a Large, UAC5, 2 srm.
As you see I do use a mix of the food groups Kho.

Only exception is my Sara. She's a ball of lasers!

[SirLANsalot]

SaJeel, on 12 December 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

OK, not gonna try to explain something that someone else has done so well, so if you want to get a basic gist of designing skill to power in video games check out Extra Credits: Balancing For Skill.
The autocannons are high damage dealing weapons, 3 acs putting a player at about 9 dps, this damage is pintpoint and near instant, the skill needed is low, easy stuff for any decent fps player and effective at range. Now when you compare that to the other types of weapons, energy weapons require a much greater skill to use, you have to maintain you crosshair on the target and mitigate heat much more than an autocannon. LRMS are a lowskill weapon, much easier than ACs, but they are also much less powerful. They can easily be countered by ECM or blocking them using terrain(which is more of an issue given they're indirect nature), and require a team to work together, something im sure you all know often doesn't happen. Srms... yea lets not get me started on the problems I see with srms >.<, thats a whole other post.
Ac's have some of the highest Power, and require the least skill, and this needs to change

In that vid (and I know it well) he shows and states that having a low skill to power weapon is GOOD. However also having something a little better down the road is good. Having small increments of power isn't all that good, because what you doing now is only slightly worse then say someone who did master the better "skill".

To translate to MWO terms, that is Ballistics and Energy. Ballistics are fairly easy to use weapons, since you need to predict where your target will be, when your shot lands is a skill most people have nowadays. You also get all the benefit of hitting, full damage ect ect. However you are limited to only a few of them and ammo limitations.
Energy is something diffrent, you need to hold onto the target to get full damage, so its harder to pull off (skill), but we are missing the other part of the equation. Damage is lower then Ballistics, you make up for this in having MORE of them. Enegy is more prelevent around all mechs, So you can stack more energy weapons to gain more power, but your drawbacks are heat, and lots of it. However you have no ammo to worry about but you will need to master a new skill that is not inherent to ballistics. Heat Management, knowing how to fire, WHEN to fire, and knowing when to hold your fire when its not going to be a clear shot. This is a skill that Ballistics knows mostly nothing about, for them its ammo conservation but that doesn't apply to enegy.


Right now the "community" has gotten ahold of the game and mechanics much much better then they did 6 months ago. As such the so called "FLOM" mechs have shown up, but those mechs get crushed when people in non FLOM mechs have the better gunnery skills and piloting skills. As such those FLOM mechs do not teach any of the good core skills to noobies, as most (all) of those mechs are very cool running, and have good maneuverability. Meaning when the noob tries something else he will die very quickly as he knows nothing of proper piloting or heat management.


I personally have started to climb back into my AWS mechs, and have been doing very well (still readjusting back to how that chassis handles). These mechs are like playing the game on hard mode, and I challenge anyone who thinks there "good" or are a "pro competitive" to go a use those mechs and get a good KDR on them. It will be a humbling challenge

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Nope it shouldnt. An AC5 weighs at least 10 tons including ammo. A medium laser weighs 1 ton. An AC5 should be outright better. Period.

I am not saying autocannon 5s dont need a nerf. Simply that their tonnage dictates they should be better than medium lasers.

Autocannon 5s should do way more dps than medium lasers because of their significantly higher tonnage. However Autocannon 5s should not be doing 5 damage all at once. They should fire in bursts of three or four shots that do 1.25-1.67 damage each. The problem here is pinpoint damage vs spread damage, and the fact pinpoint damage is an outright broken game mechanic. Autocannons need burst fire, simple as that.

An AC5 is and always hass been outright better because it has more range than a medium laser, even if they did the same damage this would be the case. While medium lasers probably shouldn't have done quite as much damage as AC5s, they were relatively balanced because medium lasers didn't have great range and required heat management.

Low caliber ACs have always been long range direct fire weapons for medium and light mechs, not primary weapons for assault mechs. That the AC2 actually got past a balance team doing higher DPS than an AC5 is completely ridiculous.

Making AC2s and 5s do what.. more than twice as much DPS while having 3-4x greater range just makes no sense at all. AC2s, 5s, and even 10s performing as well as they currently are jusst does not pass any metric- damage/ton or otherwise.

If damage/ton is your metric:

Why do two AC2s put out more DPS than one AC20.

Why do two medium lasers put out more DPS than one large laser.

Why does one AC2 put out more DPS than one PPC.

Why do AC10s put out more DPS than Gauss rifles.

[Tombstoner]

stjobe, on 15 December 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Seeing what Paul's ideas are to balance Clan weapons, I have little hope they will ever do anything to balance IS tech.

They just do not have a single clue.

They would if they read there own forums.


P.S. That's not actually true. i found out recently to much surprise and chagrin.

Now if they would only respond to there forums and debate with data.

Edited by Tombstoner, 19 December 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Burpitup]

SaJeel, on 12 December 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Ac's have some of the highest Power, and require the least skill, and this needs to change

This is one of the most pathetic things i have heard in a while. So we need to make everything like energy weapons now. I am sure that this game is being filled with more and more gay comments. Maybe if we just took all the weapons in the game out except small lasers.

Really what i think this post is all about is you getting killed by people that are better than you that are using ac weapons.

[TB Freelancer]

Lyoto Machida, on 12 December 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Lol at ammo explosions as being a deterrent to bringing ACs...how often do you really see ammo explosions?

I NEVER run CASE and rarely die to ammo explosions (ie: maybe once a month).

Yeah, same here. I honestly can't remember the last time I've died to an ammo explosion. Hell I can't even remember how long is been since I realized CASE was a waste of tonnage.....

....I'm more likely to die from a head shot than to an ammo explosion.

EDIT: Kinda throws the whole "well ammo is explosive" excuse for ballistics being what they are right now right out the window.

IMHO, when you destroy a section of a mech with ammo in it, it should explode 100% of the time, and if it does, it should explode a lot more violently because what we have right now sucks.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 20 December 2013 - 09:23 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Burpitup, on 19 December 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

This is one of the most pathetic things i have heard in a while. So we need to make everything like energy weapons now. I am sure that this game is being filled with more and more gay comments. Maybe if we just took all the weapons in the game out except small lasers.

Really what i think this post is all about is you getting killed by people that are better than you that are using ac weapons.

People that are better than him and you and me are using ACs because they do the most damage and do that damage up front and to a single point. There is no skill curve where really high end players can take advantage of the d.o.t nature of lasers to get better performance than ACs.

In fact the point of the discussion is that players of all skill levels are heavily favoring ACs because they are just straight up the best weapons at every skill level and weight category (except light).

[SirLANsalot]

vnlk65n, on 20 December 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

There is no skill curve where really high end players can take advantage of the d.o.t nature of lasers to get better performance than ACs.

Called Large Pulse Lasers. Learn 'em, use 'em and Abuse 'em. Spiders, eat your heart out lol.


LPL, so much fun, ya same tonnage and all as a PPC, little more damage, less heat less range. Use em against Lights or on brawler mechs and you too can see the light. Oh and they work REAL good as defensive guns on LRM boats (those that can pack em anyways). Using a 733P with 2 LPL 3 LRM10 and a tag, packs a nice punch and long and short range, surprises a lot of people too when they get in close.

[Joseph Mallan]

SaJeel, on 12 December 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

OK, not gonna try to explain something that someone else has done so well, so if you want to get a basic gist of designing skill to power in video games check out Extra Credits: Balancing For Skill.
The autocannons are high damage dealing weapons, 3 acs putting a player at about 9 dps, this damage is pintpoint and near instant, the skill needed is low, easy stuff for any decent fps player and effective at range. Now when you compare that to the other types of weapons, energy weapons require a much greater skill to use, you have to maintain you crosshair on the target and mitigate heat much more than an autocannon. LRMS are a lowskill weapon, much easier than ACs, but they are also much less powerful. They can easily be countered by ECM or blocking them using terrain(which is more of an issue given they're indirect nature), and require a team to work together, something im sure you all know often doesn't happen. Srms... yea lets not get me started on the problems I see with srms >.<, thats a whole other post.
Ac's have some of the highest Power, and require the least skill, and this needs to change

You know My only complaint with the video was calling a grenade launcher a Noob Tube. Yes it is an area affect weapon, but it is by no means a accurate weapon. PLUS it is a weapon every fireteam in the military wants in its bag of ticks. Sure rifles and Machine Guns can throw a ton of hurt. But when you need to breech those weapons cannot get the job done as well as a 40 mm grenade. Get out there and use one, then say its a noob tube.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

SirLANsalot, on 20 December 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

Called Large Pulse Lasers. Learn 'em, use 'em and Abuse 'em. Spiders, eat your heart out lol.


LPL, so much fun, ya same tonnage and all as a PPC, little more damage, less heat less range. Use em against Lights or on brawler mechs and you too can see the light. Oh and they work REAL good as defensive guns on LRM boats (those that can pack em anyways). Using a 733P with 2 LPL 3 LRM10 and a tag, packs a nice punch and long and short range, surprises a lot of people too when they get in close.

Autocannon 2 .52 2 3.85 1 1.92 1 6 720m 2160m
Large Pulse Laser 3.25 10.6 2.75 8.5 2.21 2 7 300m 600m

An AC2 has higher DPS, has lower heat generation, has vastly longer range, and even costs less.