65 replies to this topic

[3endless8oogie]

They can´t even get this 2 gamemodes ( which are just like copy&paste from bf and ut) finished, it still feels like a beta.
How can we expect them to get pve or pvevp with missions and missionevents up and running?

The thinking-mans-shooter-horse is dead and has taken enough beating already

[Tombstoner]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 December 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I don't get the obsession with RNG. You don't need RNG to have an AI that players can beat. YOu can give it less hit points less firepower. You can make it miss every 4th shot like clock-work.

I don't think the AI in Startrek Online is so easily overpowered because they use RNG: It is is bad because it has only 1/6th of the players active abilities and the abilities it has aren't always useful. And if you raise the difficulty level, the only thnig that changes is that it deals more damage and has more hit points.

A well made challenging PvE game is basically a form of a puzzle. There are solution strategies and your "challenge" is to learn them. Look at MMO Boss fights. "Okay, when the boss' hit points are down to 2/3, this triggers its massive area attack, and it targets the highest aggro target with additional damage and a push effect. The Tanks need to activate their CC counters abilities, the healers need to ready their heals and identify the likely target, and everyone should get out of the AOE. Afterwards, it reflects 50 % of all green damage, so switch to your blue and red damage powers if you can, but remember, when it takes at least 5,000 blue or red damage, it will switch to that type of damage, so have your resistances in order and look for the signal - the pulses of its aura will increase in frequency shortly before this happens. At 1/3 hit points it summons healing spirits, crowd control must look out for those and keep them away or the boss heals all that damage and we're back to 2/3 hit points. *to be continued* "

You often also have a set of trash mobs and "easy" encounters that don't require much strategy, as a filler (both for pure grindig purposes and also to just make you feel awesome because you just roflstomped the AI), and then you get to the more hardcore encounters.


* A Battletech "Boss Fight" could depend on timing and positioning - if you need to defend a convoy, you must learn when the enemies attack from which direction and be there in time - you also must be good at dispatching the enemy, because if you're still fighting the North but the South attackers are arriving, your convoy is unprotected. It could also become easier if you manage to send someone stealthy to dispatch the enemies mobile HQ which will delay reeinforcements. And if you can save an allied village nearby, you will have additional infantry and vehicle reeinforcements that can deflect attacks from your convoy.

I concede that it (a single player game) can be done and would be a game i wouldn't mind playing but A RNG violates PGI's design paradigm of skill based game play. without some form of randomness for incoming fire your dead in seconds. This is the exact reverse of not wanting a RNG to determine if i miss or hit. i want my shots to go where i aim. but some how this is no longer valid when it involves incoming fire.
My survival becomes tuned to a predetermined miss rate or my failure to follow a scripted encounter.

Blizzard takes criticism for making things too easy and giving away high level gear. they also have to take steps to minimize the interactions of PVE and PVP. in fact they still do to this day. balancing PVP and PVE comes with a price. Some skills are way to over powering and result in changes to one form of game play. I have wished blizzard would do just PVE and not have to balance PVE relative to the PVP game.

If not done in ways that are mutually exclusive PVE and PVP will interact. MWO will need 2 sets of currency and mech/ item for each cash type or player will realize they can grind out gear in PVE and use it for PVP.

for PVE content the simplest thing to do for balancing is add screen shake to the AI's shots. but then you start to get into more tuning issues with more then one opponent. now you need weaker targets. in the end you just get over whelmed buy too many paper cuts.

Edited by Tombstoner, 16 December 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[Flying Judgement]

Lyoto Machida, on 14 December 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

And CW was done 20 years ago with SIGNIFCANTLY less advanced engines...what's PGI's excuse?

man u made the biggest point so far thats it its simple.
just put a new shiny picture instead of the old map and its done.
ppl tend to over complicate things. i would have been ok with CW if its just in this web page.
game modes, missions are more important.
im happy they sarted developing PVE at last small steps like turrets but hopefully it grows to something bigger.
i love to see tanks or troops running around on the field.
they dont have to look good im ok itf its just a Box with textures so it wont strain my pc the maps looks like they have been made 6-7 years ago.
its nowhere near to world of tanks or MWLL map quality.
so u know what just keep it simple. little boxes rolling on the road and our mission is to defend them if we succeed on the next mission we can have turrets. or we can use heavy or assault mechs.

or little triangle "Planes" with a fancy texture on them moving slowly across the map and we need to shoot them down or they dropping airstrike on our dropship and the other team need to stop us they dont even need weapons.

so lots of simple convoy missions.
destroy the fuel tanks guarded by turrets in a maze and 5 Medium mech player.
i would love to fight against impossible odds in a fast mech when lots of turrets backing me up.
or attack this place.

i dont ask for supper shiny stuff with a complicated AI
simple as simple as possible and if its works and they think they can step one level up ok do it

[Flying Judgement]

also why dont they use Walls in the maps to make a " New map " like blocking roads in the citys putting a few fence in caustic
or even several huge WALL all across the map what u can shoot down or fly across on it but it would make the games different imagine the assaults digging they way behind the enemy.
yes cheap map variants.
with at least 5 different spawn options.
and why the enemy base or cap point showing up on the map ?? what is the point of scoots ? if there is nothing to scoot

[3endless8oogie]

Flying Judgement, on 16 December 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

man u made the biggest point so far thats it its simple.
just put a new shiny picture instead of the old map and its done.
ppl tend to over complicate things. i would have been ok with CW if its just in this web page.
game modes, missions are more important.
im happy they sarted developing PVE at last small steps like turrets but hopefully it grows to something bigger.
i love to see tanks or troops running around on the field.
they dont have to look good im ok itf its just a Box with textures so it wont strain my pc the maps looks like they have been made 6-7 years ago.
its nowhere near to world of tanks or MWLL map quality.
so u know what just keep it simple. little boxes rolling on the road and our mission is to defend them if we succeed on the next mission we can have turrets. or we can use heavy or assault mechs.

or little triangle "Planes" with a fancy texture on them moving slowly across the map and we need to shoot them down or they dropping airstrike on our dropship and the other team need to stop us they dont even need weapons.

so lots of simple convoy missions.
destroy the fuel tanks guarded by turrets in a maze and 5 Medium mech player.
i would love to fight against impossible odds in a fast mech when lots of turrets backing me up.
or attack this place.

i dont ask for supper shiny stuff with a complicated AI
simple as simple as possible and if its works and they think they can step one level up ok do it

Yeah it could be so simple if this game was bought in a shop and some modders get their hand on it...
...but sadly it´s f2p so having a nice shop is more important, grind is more important and if that doesn´t work pay2win will be introduced step by step

[Daemir]

Tombstoner, on 16 December 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

I concede that it (a single player game) can be done and would be a game i wouldn't mind playing but A RNG violates PGI's design paradigm of skill based game play. without some form of randomness for incoming fire your dead in seconds. This is the exact reverse of not wanting a RNG to determine if i miss or hit. i want my shots to go where i aim. but some how this is no longer valid when it involves incoming fire.
My survival becomes tuned to a predetermined miss rate or my failure to follow a scripted encounter.

Blizzard takes criticism for making things too easy and giving away high level gear. they also have to take steps to minimize the interactions of PVE and PVP. in fact they still do to this day. balancing PVP and PVE comes with a price. Some skills are way to over powering and result in changes to one form of game play. I have wished blizzard would do just PVE and not have to balance PVE relative to the PVP game.

If not done in ways that are mutually exclusive PVE and PVP will interact. MWO will need 2 sets of currency and mech/ item for each cash type or player will realize they can grind out gear in PVE and use it for PVP.

for PVE content the simplest thing to do for balancing is add screen shake to the AI's shots. but then you start to get into more tuning issues with more then one opponent. now you need weaker targets. in the end you just get over whelmed buy too many paper cuts.

You keep parroting that RNG is not in the design paradigm for PGI, yet there is RNG in the game already, so I don't really know what you are on about there. Streaks, LRMs, SRMs, LBX, machine guns and flamers all have RNG in their workings. UAC5 as well. The mother of RNG.
Lol not to even mention their netcode and HSR, those can be totally called RNG...

And I at least surely am not talking about mixing the PvP with the PvE. You can keep them separate. Hell, in CW, PvP planets between factions, then PvE missions on those planets for reason X Z Y. Maybe there's some pirate base left on the planet that's hampering supply lines. Doesn't matter for the PvP (or you can make it give a slight penalty to whatever logistics CW is supposed to have), PvE mission to clear that thing out.

[Sandpit]

Why don't you post this in feature suggestion and poll it?

[Tombstoner]

Erish II, on 16 December 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

You keep parroting that RNG is not in the design paradigm for PGI, yet there is RNG in the game already, so I don't really know what you are on about there. Streaks, LRMs, SRMs, LBX, machine guns and flamers all have RNG in their workings. UAC5 as well. The mother of RNG.
Lol not to even mention their netcode and HSR, those can be totally called RNG...

And I at least surely am not talking about mixing the PvP with the PvE. You can keep them separate. Hell, in CW, PvP planets between factions, then PvE missions on those planets for reason X Z Y. Maybe there's some pirate base left on the planet that's hampering supply lines. Doesn't matter for the PvP (or you can make it give a slight penalty to whatever logistics CW is supposed to have), PvE mission to clear that thing out.

Not for determining a hit. with some exceptions for implementing spread.

[Hythos]

MW1 + MW2/Mercs + multi-player +CW with mission contracts, throw in the existing Battletech Lore / story-line...
That's not asking too much.

[Kaspirikay]

GUYS, HOLY **** GUYS, ******* HELL GUYS I HAVE THE BEST IDEA, GUYS LISTEN, WHAT IF, GUYS, WHAT IF... WE FOLLOW ARMA 3 PLAYER MADE MISSIONS?!

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Not sure why folks here are saying PVE doesn't work with Mechwarrior.

Mechwarrior became a successful franchise for most of its life with PVE being the main and often ONLY gameplay mode. It's what I grew up with, that made me love the gameplay.

Not this PVP pugstomp GG circle jerk we have going on now that makes me hate the franchise.

[Corvus Antaka]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Solution found in one minute!

Now, give PGI 5 years to make it happen.

[3endless8oogie]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 16 December 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Now, give PGI 5 years to make it happen.

but then microsoft pulls the licenseplug...

Edited by 3endless8oogie, 17 December 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[Sandpit]

3endless8oogie, on 17 December 2013 - 02:43 AM, said:

but then microsoft pulls the licenseplug...

correction, PGI pushes high dollar sales while waiting to see if it's worth it for them to continue developing the game itself

[Almond Brown]

Erish II, on 13 December 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Quite aware of that, however he is claiming you can't do an AI that isn't 100% aimbot headshots because weapons in MWO don't have cone of fire. Well, neither did weapons in previous titles, but I still do recall playing vs AI and they did not headshot you with every round fired. Amazing isn't it?

One has to ask. Did you ever lose, say 2 missions in a row, to the AI in any of the other MW titles? The reason, the AI sucked as an opponent. The OP has access to MW2, MW3, MW4 and the boat load of add-ons for those games. If he wishes to play MW PvE, then just fire up any of those wonderful PvE MW games.

The Community is howling about lack of Content but now want to change directions and make PvE versus CW?

Ok, this place has officially lost it mind, for the 12th time, this quarter.

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 December 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Erish II, on 14 December 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

stuff

All of that has 0 bearing to the pvp part of the game so I don't really understand why they could not implement AI and PvE into the game, other than their own incompetence maybe...

You don't think you will get what you want and so you slander the Dev team based on an Online PVP game. Mature dude. Real mature.

[Captain Stiffy]

Hythos, on 13 December 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

I have no recommendations on how to make this any better, considering any hint of PvE came as a "not in our lifetime" condition. I would LOVE to see PvE in some form. I would love to see CW. Single-player may have some use.

I do enjoy the *idea* of playing MWO, but no longer wish to play as-is for a multitude of reasons.

You know this highlights some things I've been thinking about for awhile. As the hard-core among us read this they may gag a little, but please hear me out- I have only two primary points;

1) Some features that are considered "candy" or "fluff" in other MMO's definitely have something to bring to the table when it comes to an FPS.
2) The MWO community has long asked for in-game chatrooms and other features to help organize the community, guilds, etc...

I think that being able to get out of the cockpit and continue to experience the game could be a huge positive for MWO. Being able to visit "the station/bar/pub/library/whatever" (we don't even have to get into naming things here) might help a lot to sew the feel of MWO together and also house some of the long-ignored-but-normally-standard-equipment chat and community features that are sorely lacking.

Now I'm not saying we need to be able to go on quests or any of that tripe, just a place to have some sort of avatar and talk to and group with other players. Very simple. Maybe spend c-bills at the bar, but not much more.

[Almond Brown]

Hythos, on 16 December 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

MW1 + MW2/Mercs + multi-player +CW with mission contracts, throw in the existing Battletech Lore / story-line...
That's not asking too much.

While waiting for MWO to finish, for a better analogy, why not go play those. If you don't have them already on a shelf in your game room, then Steam can likely bail you out.

[Tombstoner]

Almond Brown, on 17 December 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

While waiting for MWO to finish, for a better analogy, why not go play those. If you don't have them already on a shelf in your game room, then Steam can likely bail you out.

i tried during my first uninstall of MWO -sadly there is no walk down memory lane. The graphics are too dated.

I'll try to summarize my points.

1- PGI has decide to make a PVP game with skill based targeting. that means all your direct fire group weapons will hit the same spot even at max range. nothing artificial is between you and the target. player skill determines hit or miss. unless terrain clipping is an issue.

2-Every game with some form of AI has to be tuned/handy caped/buffed in some way to mimic a range of human capabilities. in FPS an AI is capable of Hitting your head 100% of the time all the time, if its not some how nerfed . you never see god like gunnery because game developers know better. They add in stuff to normalize the playing field, otherwise there players will get slaughtered.

3-When you combine PGI's skill based targeting with PVE the AI has no nerfs. it will have perfect AIM. if PGI does add say a RNG to simulate player skill. then the game turns into a dice roll for incoming damage. sorry but i dont want to get into a discussion on scripted encounters like WOW for MWO. would a UAV be the same as a warlock pet?

4- if people/PGI are not willing to tolerate a RNG between them and landing a shot. then why would people/PGI tolerate a RNG determining if and where they get hit. this makes PGI's MWO incompatible for PVE content.

5- could PVE be done, absolutely. but PGI will not use a RNG at this stage to determine incoming damage. AI and game logic are not easy to get right/tune. some players will get slaughtered and others will think its a joke. now you need dynamic scaling.

[Taemien]

Why doesn't this have a single player game to it? A simple reason. The devs simply don't want to. Thats what it really comes down to. Sometimes it isn't about money. You don't always just make something because it will make money. When it comes to game design, sometimes you just don't want to be the one to do it.

For example, Duck Dynasty could probably rake in a few more viewers by changing some things up in the show to approach a broader audience. They don't want to do that. They are happy with what they are doing.

Same reason MWLL didn't have a single player part to it. They simply didn't feel like working on AI and getting a single player story written up and all that jazz. MWO has no plot, no story, and hence, no full time writers. That changes when you go single player. Which means single player would probably cost MC, which would cause many of you to go ballistic. Thats a hassle they can avoid by not even bothering.

Though if you all are serious about this. Start something up on kickstarter and send a letter to PGI that they will get it if they make it a reality. If they take the bait, you're golden, if not.. well you have your final answer, they don't want your money.