41 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Kanatta Jing, on 14 December 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

97 KPH lights the weapon load outs of mechs twice their weight. With stock armor.

Their going to be... different.

I'd rather take a mech twice their weight with the same speed and exponentially greater armor (and probably greater firepower, seeing how both have 16 tons for pod space). The stock armor of the Fox is terrible: 4 tons of FF, or 76 total armor points in TT (152 in MWO). It comes stock with 8 armor points per leg in TT, so in MWO that translates into 16 points. The CT would only have 18 armor points in MWO. The KF stands no chance whatsover of competing with other lights other than perhaps the Locust, and even that might be better! The Adder will have 28 armor points per leg and 32 in the CT. That's better, but still not up to par with the meta especially because it's relatively slow.

If you want a viable mech, you need either speed, armor, or both. If you have neither, you're gonna have a bad time.

"Different" doesn't always mean good:

Edited by FupDup, 14 December 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Goose]

Paul said:

Allow only 2 projectiles to leave the launcher at any given time. SSRM-4 will fire 2 volleys of 2 missiles. SRM-6 will fire 3 volleys of 2 missiles. This will stagger the incoming missiles allowing AMS to take down more if the targeted Mech has AMS.

In an otherwise good-news post, this stuck out as illustrating a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Craven was doing to people by chain- firing though that gorram NARC tube …

Also: I strongly suspect the "no armor adjustments" thing to face-plant in testing; I don't know where they will scrounge the tonnage, but most Clan 'Mechs will need some more armor somehow …

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

The Kit Fox and Adder are also officially dead-on-arrival now. 97 KPH lights are horribad.

Eh, or appeal to specialist players, like the 2X and 4X Ravens did. They were rare, but some people actually did well with them.

Funny that they balanced the omni tech pretty much spot on to how I thought. The swappable sections was new to me though, and IMO, pretty inspired take to the issue.

I think, before announcing anything DOA, I will wait and see. And let's be honest, some mechs in TT were never good for some roles. The Hellbringer was never meant to go toe to toe, and it can't now. With 8 tons of standard armor it was always a stand off support mech design, even if as with half of FASA's loadouts, the weapons did not always fit.

The Kit Fox will have to be played different than the Jenner, OK, doesn't make it DOA. Doe's mean people will have to get out of their comfortable ruts and rethink the roles of some mechs. With Weight Limits in, a Light that can fill the role of a faster Hunchback is not a bad thing.

Start thinking outside of the comfortable Meta box kids. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.

Goose, on 14 December 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

In an otherwise good-news post, this stuck out as illustrating a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Craven was doing to people by chain- firing though that gorram NARC tube …

Also: I strongly suspect the "no armor adjustments" thing to face-plant in testing; I don't know where they will scrounge the tonnage, but most Clan 'Mechs will need some more armor somehow …

actually, a FEW will. The Hellbringer. Fire Moth. Kit Fox. Contrary to popular myth, most Omni's carry pretty decent, though hardly maxed, armor.

Armor is part of survivability. Speed is another. HAving twice the firepower of the other guy kinda helps too, actually.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 December 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

Eh, or appeal to specialist players, like the 2X and 4X Ravens did. They were rare, but some people actually did well with them.

Funny that they balanced the omni tech pretty much spot on to how I thought. The swappable sections was new to me though, and IMO, pretty inspired take to the issue.

I think, before announcing anything DOA, I will wait and see. And let's be honest, some mechs in TT were never good for some roles. The Hellbringer was never meant to go toe to toe, and it can't now. With 8 tons of standard armor it was always a stand off support mech design, even if as with half of FASA's loadouts, the weapons did not always fit.

The Kit Fox will have to be played different than the Jenner, OK, doesn't make it DOA. Doe's mean people will have to get out of their comfortable ruts and rethink the roles of some mechs. With Weight Limits in, a Light that can fill the role of a faster Hunchback is not a bad thing.

Start thinking outside of the comfortable Meta box kids. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.

The problem is that certain weight classes have natural strengths and weaknesses. For instance, an assault mech will never be good at running at high speeds, no matter how huge of an engine you try to cram in or other speed-enhancing equipment (i.e. MASC). It would be a waste of time trying to turn an assault mech into a fast runner like the Fire Moth. It's also kind of dumb when people try to turn mediums in PPC + AC/5 poptarts, when a heavy or assault would be far better in that capacity. For lights, their natural strength is speed--and speed is also their life. They cannot boat weapons very effectively (outside of small things like Medium Lasers) by their very nature of having low tonnage. Slow lights get the worst of both worlds between big mechs and small mechs: they have the armor and firepower issues of lights, and they get the maneuverability weakness of heavies/assaults as well.

To make matters worse for the KF, it comes stock with 8 armor points per leg in TT. In MWO, that doubles to 16 points...which is the same as a Locust's leg armor. Kit Fox Armor In MWO That's what it'll look like in terms of armor.


Moving on...this does nothing to solve second-line Clan Battlemechs. By virtue of not being Omnimechs, they get to have the superior Inner Sphere customziation system. And by virtue of being Clan-built, they get to have the benefits of Clan weaponry and upgrades. The whole IIC line and various other second-line mechs will have to be avoided to avoid collapsing the whole thing, and Inner Sphere Omnimechs would probably have a hard time.

Edited by FupDup, 14 December 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

The problem is that certain weight classes have natural strengths and weaknesses. For instance, an assault mech will never be good at running at high speeds, no matter how huge of an engine you try to cram in or other speed-enhancing equipment (i.e. MASC). It would be a waste of time trying to turn an assault mech into a fast running like the Fire Moth. For lights, their natural strength is speed--and speed is also their life. They cannot boat weapons very effectively (outside of small things like Medium Lasers) by their very nature of having low tonnage. Slow lights get the worst of both worlds between big mechs and small mechs: they have the armor and firepower issues of lights, and they get the maneuverability weakness of heavies/assaults as well.

To make matters worse for the KF, it comes stock with 8 armor points per leg in TT. In MWO, that doubles to 16 points...which is the same as a Locust's leg armor. Kit Fox Armor In MWO That's what it'll look like in terms of armor.


Moving on...this does nothing to solve second-line Clan Battlemechs. By virtue of not being Omnimechs, they get to have the superior Inner Sphere customziation system. And by virtue of being Clan-built, they get to have the benefits of Clan weaponry and upgrades. The whole IIC line and various other second-line mechs will have to be avoided to avoid collapsing the whole thing, and Inner Sphere Omnimechs would probably suck popsickles.

actually, being clan mechs, the customization will probably be restricted same as omni, but without the swappable sections.

Why?

Simple. Because Clan IICs and Second Liners are given to the weekend warriors, dezgra and militia types who could not cut it. That means they have LESS access and ability to customize than the trueborns in their Omnis.

as for specialties, that is true, to an extent, and again, start thinking about things like weight limits. You see a 30 ton mech with Light Armor. That is true. What I see is a drop where you could have a Dragon, or TWO Kit Fox in that tonnage, which bring about twice the workable firepower of a dragon to the table, but also have the tactical flexibility of being two units. Yes drop numbers will still factor, but it will be up to the players and drop commanders to optimize that.

Who will be right, you or I? We won't really know until they drop I reckon. But then, people are still trying to convince me that the YLW is useless, or my HBK-4G. And I just keep killing them with them. So maybe I am just dense like that.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 December 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 December 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

actually, being clan mechs, the customization will probably be restricted same as omni, but without the swappable sections.

Why?

Simple. Because Clan IICs and Second Liners are given to the weekend warriors, dezgra and militia types who could not cut it. That means they have LESS access and ability to customize than the trueborns in their Omnis.

Well, Inner Sphere Battlemech customization in MWO has been given to every man and his dog from the get-go, so I'm not so sure we can count on that.

Edited by FupDup, 14 December 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Well, Inner Sphere Battlemech customization in MWO has been given to every man and his dog from the get-go, so I'm not so sure we can count on that.

and one can't against it either.

So far I have pretty well called the clan implementation right, I'm gonna stick with my gut (and having gotten a drunk Russ talking at the Launch. Paul and Bryan weren't exactly stoic tee-totallers, either. )

[Goose]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Moving on...this does nothing to solve second-line Clan Battlemechs …

Did someone just say "Trail 'Mech?" 'Cause I distinctly heard someone say "Trail 'Mech."

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 December 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Who will be right, you or I? We won't really know until they drop I reckon. But then, people are still trying to convince me that the YLW is useless, or my HBK-4G. And I just keep killing them with them. So maybe I am just dense like that.

You're using both of those mechs in capacities that their weight class is good at fulfilling.

Let me put it this way: A light mech trying to be a slow gunboat is like an assault mech with a STD 400 engine and 5 Small Lasers. Sure, you can pull it off, but it's a rather silly way to use the mech and goes against the design ethos of their respective classes.


(^^Don't be this guy).

Edited by FupDup, 14 December 2013 - 07:33 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Considering that the IS mechwarriors are either rich enough to mod their own rides or supported by House or Merc Unit backing sufficient to mod their rides, it makes sufficient sense for IS drivers to get lots of pricey customization options.

Clan front-line warriors get all kinds of fun toys and build flexibility due to their omnimechs. It makes sense for them to have all kinds of leeway with personalizing their rides.

Clan second-line troops are trash warriors, scrubs, and oldsters who didn't have the good grace to get themselves killed. They are marginalized, given left-over scrap mech builds, and told to fight and (hopefully) die should they be lucky enough to face an actual enemy of some kind. It makes zero sense for any second-line warrior to be allowed to mod his mech.

Really, I don't see second-line mechs being released at all until very late, say if the timeline advances all the way to Operation Scorpion and Operation Bulldog.

[Hillslam]

People need to get over their fantasies of easy mode op clan mechs.

Still laughing at all the pre-announcement discussions of how clan mechs should only go to the most dedicated clan nerds roleplaying the larp larp garble wabu zellbriggen dungeon master blah blah blah...

No.

You PAY CASH like every other paying customer. Ha

Edited by Hillslam, 14 December 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Christof Romulus]

So, a couple of things;

The LACK of customization of certain Clan components is the only thing that is going to keep Inner Sphere mechs in play - PERIOD. - I cannot fathom why people are arguing that some Omni mechs are going to be too light in the armor and too slow in the movement when they are extremely more powerful in every other light.

Yes, Omni mechs are going to be easier AND softer targets. Please don't feel bad for them - because EVERY Omni mech holds an order of magnitude better weapons than the Inner Sphere counterpart.

Daishi has FIFTY AND A HALF TONS of CLAN weapons. To put this into perspective, the CLAN UAC 20 is 12 tons - giving the Daishi enough WEIGHT to hold 4 UAC 20's (which is MORE than the equivalent of EIGHT Inner Sphere AC 20's!!!! - Just THINK about that for a minute...)

Can it HOLD that many UAC 20's... actually yes (by using the B configuration it sure as hell can) but ghost heat would prevent the dual shot - but that isn't the point - the point is yes, Omni mechs will be slower and 'softer' than their Inner sphere equivalents, HOWEVER RELATIVELY (in other words, in relation to) the damage that THEY ARE PUTTING OUT the Inner Sphere mechs are going to be FAR softer by comparison.

That alone, the fact that most Omni Mechs aren't using their full complement of armor, goes a VERY long way to trying to even out the fact that Omni mechs are swinging for 7 damage per ER Medium Laser, and FIFTEEN damage for their ERPPCs (Can't wait for that 30 point alpha poptart to return), EVERY weapon system does greater damage by VALUE and by RANGE (and in MWO since weapons deal damage GREATER than their range, such as the AC20, the clan values which extend even those will... by extension, deal EVEN GREATER damage) and of course tonnage. (Let's not forget double heatsinks that don't take up 3 critical locations)

Hell, honestly? I would go so far as to force Omni mechs to not be allowed to mount additional double heatsinks BUT TREAT ALL heatsinks as true double heatsinks.

What this comes down to is, how much damage do you think these things are going to take VS how much damage do you think these things are going to deal in the same amount of time. Clan weapons hit harder, farther, AND you will have more of them (Lighter AND Smaller). This is a true balance against Inner Sphere mechs simply having more hitpoints but with (honestly, by comparison) child toys as weapons.

[Xeno Phalcon]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

You're using both of those mechs in capacities that their weight class is good at fulfilling.

Let me put it this way: A light mech trying to be a slow gunboat is like an assault mech with a STD 400 engine and 5 Small Lasers. Sure, you can pull it off, but it's a rather silly way to use the mech and goes against the design ethos of their respective classes.


(^^Don't be this guy).

I swear everytime I see that image of the CHARGER (brainfart) I think of Will Smith in the first Men In Black getting the noisy cricket.



"I feel like Im going to break this damn thing!"

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 14 December 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[FupDup]

Xeno Phalcon, on 14 December 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

I swear everytime I see that image of the quickdraw I think of Will Smith in the first Men In Black getting the noisy cricket.



"I feel like Im going to break this damn thing!"

Actually that was the Charger.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger

It's an 80 ton assault mech that is armed with 5 Small Lasers.

[Xeren KelDar]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Actually that was the Charger.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger

It's an 80 ton assault mech that is armed with 5 Small Lasers.

LOL makes the noisy cricket reference even funnier doesn't it?

[GRiPSViGiL]

Snowcrow, on 14 December 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Being able to equip any weapon would break the game.

Well. This thread was resolved quickly.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Bishop I agree with you for the most part about the armor values, but It works if they are moderate. Lights, especially under 100kph need full armor unless they want to die horribly to every single mech they come across. I could oneshot every single clan light in existence with my 30 alpha Jenner, and they would not be able to outskirmish me due to my obscene speed.

I'm actually in favour of keeping clan lights slower given the insane firepower/heat efficiency they can produce with ballistic and missile loadouts compared to an Inner Sphere mech of similar weight, however keeping them on paper armor is a death sentence no matter how you play it.


The other problem is balancing paper weight armor in comp drops, it will force clan metagame into the omnimechs with higher armor as a default, something which I don't like since it will most likely end up being Direwolf Spam with the occational medium thrown in.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 15 December 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Toast001, on 14 December 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

So why is there different varients of clan mechs when they are supposed to have interchangeable weapon systems? It would almost seem that they are trying to justify 30 dollars for 4 varients of the same mech instead of just 30 dollars for 1 omni.

it will be to comply with the way you grind xp to master mechs (your need 3) which means if you wait until the staggered release next year you'll have to buy or sacrifice 3 other mechs to mast each chasis/variant,

A far more omnimech way of doing things would be to have one mech triple the pilot skill xp grind, rip out the current customisation method and have 'pods' with pre defined weapons packages in which could be bought for CB, like endo, dhs and FF are now..
( of course that would have the min/maxers screaming foul, because they couldn't have their cheesy builds which cause a lot of the game imbalance problems with MWO)

[C E Dwyer]

FupDup, on 14 December 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

You're using both of those mechs in capacities that their weight class is good at fulfilling.

Let me put it this way: A light mech trying to be a slow gunboat is like an assault mech with a STD 400 engine and 5 Small Lasers. Sure, you can pull it off, but it's a rather silly way to use the mech and goes against the design ethos of their respective classes.


(^^Don't be this guy).

Do be this guy.

Its the assault version of the Urban Mech, cute, needing cuddles but so wanted to make this battle tech, besides it'll be turned into a large laser ppc boat soon as its bought

[FupDup]

Cathy, on 15 December 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Do be this guy.

Its the assault version of the Urban Mech, cute, needing cuddles but so wanted to make this battle tech, besides it'll be turned into a large laser ppc boat soon as its bought

That's because our current nearly-infinite IS customization allows for such.