10 replies to this topic

[Ben Morgan]

Putting everyones concerns about being milked by an uncaring company, how to balance ClanMechs and why there is only so limited information aside:
I can understand that you "need" different Variants of Mechs for your Skill-Tree-System to work, but all the Mechs in the Package are OMNI-Mechs. Meaning: Maybe there are 1-2 fixed weaponsystems that you can't exchange, but the rest is completely customizable. I want missles? I get missles! I want an AC20? I get an AC20! You get the point. I just can't see a reason for different variants with Omni-Mechs (except the Skill-Tree-System).

[Dymlos2003]

Ben Morgan, on 16 December 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Putting everyones concerns about being milked by an uncaring company, how to balance ClanMechs and why there is only so limited information aside:
I can understand that you "need" different Variants of Mechs for your Skill-Tree-System to work, but all the Mechs in the Package are OMNI-Mechs. Meaning: Maybe there are 1-2 fixed weaponsystems that you can't exchange, but the rest is completely customizable. I want missles? I get missles! I want an AC20? I get an AC20! You get the point. I just can't see a reason for different variants with Omni-Mechs (except the Skill-Tree-System).

Have you even read the command chair post?

[Ben Morgan]

I was busy reading through the forums for 2 hours before I wrote this, but obviously I missed something. Would you be so kind and show/tell me what I missed?
Thank you

[Dymlos2003]

http://mwomercs.com/...gn-perspective/

[Ben Morgan]

Thats helpfull, thanks Well, I still have a question then:
I buy one of the Clan-Packs because, let's face it, Kit Foxes are speedy, deadly and lots of fun. Variant A fits my playstyle perfectly with laser and ballisitic hardpoints and I build myself a speedy-closecombat kind of mech. I assume there will still be a skill-tree for my mechs and I will have to play all 3 Variants. Variant B is made up mainly of rockets and for whatever reasons I don't like rockets. I swap every swapable part with Variant A and basically continue with the exact same configuration as before. With the Omni-Tech rules like they are now, this should be easily possible.

Now that doesn't make much sense, does it?

Edited by Ben Morgan, 16 December 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Yeah in fact if that mech/variant have not weapons on CT and Head then you can make same cofig on each variant.Good example is adder(puma) where only flamer is hardwired(on head I think) and rest of weapons is on arms/side torsos so you can make Adder Prime variant on each of variants...and there buying 3 varians seems pointless.
And it should be good to point that those omnislots are NOT omnislots at all.You can only swap parts which are avialable on one of those variants...that means if none of those variants have balistic left arm then you can not switch laser arm for balistic one -> not an Omnislot at all...

[verbosity]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 16 December 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

Yeah in fact if that mech/variant have not weapons on CT and Head then you can make same cofig on each variant.Good example is adder(puma) where only flamer is hardwired(on head I think) and rest of weapons is on arms/side torsos so you can make Adder Prime variant on each of variants...and there buying 3 varians seems pointless.

Would be, but you need to grind through them for the skill tree don't you? plus I assume that you'll only get the weapons pods for a configuration from that configuration.

It's worth noting that while it is possible to rip out any weapon and replace it with another, you can do that to any mech if you want in BT, but if you are staying with 'stock mechs' then you are limited to the different configs offered by the omni's, in this regards, PGI is staying true to the concept

[Ben Morgan]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 16 December 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

And it should be good to point that those omnislots are NOT omnislots at all.You can only swap parts which are avialable on one of those variants...that means if none of those variants have balistic left arm then you can not switch laser arm for balistic one -> not an Omnislot at all...

Then lets hope that the Variants cover nearly every possible configuration...

verbosity, on 16 December 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Would be, but you need to grind through them for the skill tree don't you? plus I assume that you'll only get the weapons pods for a configuration from that configuration.

I really hope that is not the case.
Possible example story:
You just got together your 10kk creds for a Timber Wolf (fictive price) and you bought your favorite config. But you think you could do even better by switching the left arm from an energy configuration to a ballistic hardpoint. If you have to save up another 10kk for a Timber Wolf Config with ballistic arms, just to tear it appart for a single arm...

Not cool!

[AlexEss]

Or they will simply reduce the need to grind three versions on clan mechs to one. Or maybe make it a perk if you are part of the clan faction...

There are ways around it.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Quote

Clan BattleMechs and How They’ll Be Built/Customized
First, let’s get the obligatory disclaimer out of the way. As with all works in progress, our OmniMech design is subject to change, especially any of the smaller details. Balance is key, as we wish for OmniMechs to be neither inadequately nor overly restrictive, and explained below is the path we aim to take to get there.

Obviously this is just a disclaimer. What it boils down to is that everything is subject to change.

Quote

We will be designing and allowing customization of Clan OmniMechs in a manner similar to the OmniMech rules that are implemented in the BattleTech tabletop game. In the BattleTech lore, OmniMechs are capable of mounting weapons and equipment in modular pods that can be swapped around with relative ease between battles. This is in contrast to standard BattleMechs where virtually every weapon and system is hardwired and fully integrated into the chassis, slowing repairs and especially hampering customization.
Because the standard Mechs within MWO are already essentially capable of instant repairs and a wide range of customization between battles, it’s been a little tricky to figure out how to introduce Clan OmniMechs that keep their Omni flavor. In the end we decided on a system that essentially uses modular hardpoints.

Just an intro section where they explain their starting point for their reasoning on omnimech modifications.

Quote

With a standard MWO BattleMech, you buy a variant of a particular chassis, for example, a Hunchback HBK-4G. The Mech comes with a set of default weapons and equipment as well as a fixed set of hardpoints in each location. You can customize your loadout however you wish, but will always be under the restrictions of hardpoints, critical slots, and tonnage.

A refresher on how you modify and level your battlemechs. This is helpful here since the next section will detail how omnimechs will deviate [Note: I am using battlemech to refer to standard mechs and omnimech to refer to mechs using omni pod systems, which I believe is the standard battletech vocabulary usage].

Quote

With an OmniMech, instead of buying a variant, you’ll buy a configuration. The Clans tend to designate their configurations as Prime and then A, B, C, D, etc. (e.g. Mad Cat A). Buying a configuration is much like buying a variant. You’ll get a Mech, the default weapons and equipment, and a set of hardpoints in each location. However, not only will you be able to customize the weapons and equipment, but you’ll also be able to customize the hardpoints. Once you own the Mech you’ll be able to swap out each location (e.g. head, left arm, right torso, etc) with that of another configuration. This allows you to change the hardpoints within that location.

As he'll mention later, the XP progression and variant ID are tied to the CT. Everything else is up for grabs, including the legs and head. This system seems like a very clever way to combine the current hard point system with omni pods.

Quote

For example, let’s say that you purchase the imaginary OmniMech, the Irate Tapir. You decide to purchase the B configuration because its default loadout fits with your play style. However, it doesn’t have any missile hardpoints and you really want to be able to fit a Narc Beacon to help out your teammates with their LRMs. What you can do is swap out the B left arm, which has two ballistic hardpoints, for the left arm from the C configuration, which has a missile and an energy hardpoint.

Aside from the rather interesting choice of example (NARC, really?) this serves to illustrate the principle expressed in the previous section quite nicely. I imagine that some omnimechs have JJs on the legs in certain configurations and not in others, which would make leg swaps useful. The sheer flexibility of this system has all kinds of promise, with a huge number of potential unique hard point layouts even with only the three initial configurations for each mech.

Quote

This sort of swapping can be done for all locations except for the center torso. The CT will be what identifies the Mech for purposes such as XP and Mech efficiencies. You also will not be able to choose any hardpoint combination that you want, but rather the choices will be set, and determined by the design team, based on the canon configurations for theMech.

Here is where he mentions that the XP and variant ID are tied to the CT. This is a handy way to make omnimechs fit with the current efficiency progression (with three variants needed to unlock the Elite tier). It also reiterates that omnimechs will still follow the current hard point system, though with far greater flexibilty given the ability to swap non-core locations among the configurations.

Quote

Now there wouldn’t be balanced unless it came with a cost. In this case, the ability to customize hardpoints comes with the tabletop OmniMech restrictions. All the configurations of a given OmniMech are based around a base configuration (not to be confused with the Prime configuration). This is the core of the Mech, with all the modular bits stripped out, and what remains cannot be customized at all. These include:

• The engine type and rating
  
• The number and placement of a minimum number of heatsinks
  
• The amount and distribution of armor
  
• The armor type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Ferro-Fibrous
  
• The internal structure type and the location of any critical slots occupied by Endo Steel
  
• Enhancements such as MASC
  
• The occasional weapon or other piece of equipment (e.g. jump jets) that is included as part of the base configuration

We aim to follow these as closely as possible, but the restrictions may be eased if gameplay and balance require it.

Now this is the really fun part. Many players (myself included) predicted that they'd do exactly this to balance omnimechs. According to the TT rules, a battlemech can only be modified with difficulty and at great expense. We currently have that capability with our battlemechs. Omnimechs, on the other hand, have over-specialized in weapon flexibility at the expense of overall modification capacity.

Omnimechs traditionally have all of their base kit (structure, armor, engine, and whatever "fixed" weapons and equipment all configurations share) set in stone and unmodifiable. What they gain then is the ability to swap payload using all of the remaining space as "pod space" for the omni pods. When you throw in the specific case of Clan omnimechs, where they have access to better, lighter, smaller versions of the standard IS weapons, and you'd have a situation ripe for abuse if omnimechs could change their armor, engine, critical slot distribution, etc. Retaining the TT fixed core equipment helps mitigate the potential problems with Clan omnimechs, since many of them have less-than-optimal armor distribution and engine ratings.

Quote

We’re also looking at tying in systems unique to MWO, such as our quirks system, into OmniMech design, in order to even out certain configuration’s locations that may be seen as better to use than others. For example, each part of each configuration could have its own effect on the overall quirks of the Mech. This could mean that your choice of which configuration’s part you use in each location could change how your Mech plays.

Finally, this last bit sort of falls by the way side but is very much worth considering. You can tailor your omnimech to handle better by pulling in high-mobility parts from the various configurations. You can pick all the most optimal weapon distributions at the cost of twist range or acceleration rates or whatever. Ultimately, it gives players one more layer of customization and balance that they will need to consider when building their omnimechs. Are those four cUAC10s worth losing 20% twist range? Are you willing to sacrifice all ballistic hard points to gain 10% acceleration rate? The possibliities here are endless.

In short, PGI's handling of omnimechs seems like it solves a lot of problems and offers a lot of creative customization potentialities. I am well pleased by this announcement and look forward to murdering countless test-tube babies in all their many personalized omnimechs.

[Edit for formatting]

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 16 December 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

I'm not concerned about Clan tech balance; they will find a way to make it work.

What I'm concerned about is the way the Clans and their tech are implemented as far as CW and factions are concerned. I want to know if they intend to allow IS factions to use Clan tech and vice versa...or if only Clan factions can use Clan tech.

If so, how are they planning on preventing players from completely abandoning the IS factions? Because face it, Clans will be more popular even if they are nerfed to the gills.