109 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Riptor, on 19 December 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

You cant just simply tell me that they didnt know they wouldnt be able to make the 90 days after open beta deadline

This is the most important part in my opinion. They knew their deadlines were {Scrap}. They just did it to placate players for a short period. Doing this repeatedly has ruined their credibility with a large portion of the player base.

Communication is OP and had to be nerfed apparently

[Kyle Reece]

Heffay, on 19 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

According to the yardstick you measure PGI by, yes they did.

Yes they did. And yes, that part of his post wasn't bang on the money.

Doesn't invalidate every other point in his post.

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 19 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

According to the yardstick you measure PGI by, yes they did.

It was their position at the time. Sound familiar? They changed their mind, which means they lied when they said it would be released in December no matter what. Shall we dig through all the old posts about how saying something that is untrue no matter what the reasons is a lie?

You can't have it both ways. Either they changed their mind (in which case PGI is also absolved of the claims of lying), or they lied (so you can maintain logical consistency).

Uhm... no?

I dont measure PGI because they had a pushback.. i measure them because they had several fake "pushbacks"

You cannot push back that which doesnt exist heffay. Time and time again they said they are working on the features... but they didnt.

At no point in time did CW or UI 2.0 exist before launch and right now CW still doesnt exist as anything more then a design concept.

You see the problem here? Star citizens dockfight module exists but its {Scrap}.. so it has to be pushed back

CW didnt even exist as a design document untill only recently.. despite PGI claiming that it was working on it over and over and over again.

Huge difference.

Furthermore the Star citizen crew came out and admitted that what they have is {Scrap} and they are going to show us. Im okay with that. If i see it with my own eyes and have them explain in detail whats wrong with it im okay with that.

However im not okay getting lied to repeatedly in the face when the Devs know that they havent even started designing a new feature but still promise it will be delivered in 90 days!

That is my problem with PGI. That they constantly lie through their teeth. They dont need to do that. The IP is strong enough. Yet they feel the need to repeatedly tell us stuff is comming while they know they havent even begun working on it.

If they had a working CW module but it was not good enough for release i could understand it.. but at this point in time they allready lost any goodwill they ever had to begin with.

Edited by Riptor, 19 December 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Heffay]

Riptor, on 19 December 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

That is my problem with PGI. That they constantly lie through their teeth.

So why do you continue to do business with them?

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 19 December 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

So why do you continue to do business with them?

A player isn't doing business with them by playing the game. It's a free game. A player is stating why he may NOT be doing business with them though

[Riptor]

Heffay, on 19 December 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

So why do you continue to do business with them?

Wow.... you must have run out of arguments... oh im sorry.. thats normal for you.

But just for amusement:

Who said im doing "business" with them?

Did i say anywhere that im giving them money?

And before you ask ill say it again: Im loyal to the IP... NOT to PGI. So even if i might not care for PGI itselfe i care for what they are doing to the battletech franchise.

[Thomas G Wolf]

scgt1, on 19 December 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Remember the customer is always right!

Not according to Russ though!

[Enth]

Heffay, on 19 December 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

So why do you continue to do business with them?

Personally, I have stopped "doing business" with PGI. What do I (and every other person who feels burned or cheated or lied to) mean by that? No more MC's, no more packages, no more buying into the hype. I want to see a product delivered. I want to see all of the things they have promised us since last year delivered before I will spend another cent on MC's or obscenely priced packages. And as to your earlier query about why so many people have entrusted Chris Roberts and the team at Cloud Imperium Games? Two words...TRACK RECORD. In case you have been hiding under a rock, Heffay, look back and review your gaming History. Chris Roberts has not made a bad game in his entire career. (He's made a few mediocre movies, mind you, but that is a story for another time..) When Chris steps in front of the camera and says that "He's not happy with the state of the upcoming Dogfighting module and he will only release it when he is satisfied with it", it's not because he wants us to take pity on him, it's because he's just a big a gamer as we are, and his vision for what Star Citizen/Squadron 42 only demands that the game meet his artistic vision. That is the mark of a true craftsman, not a corporate shill who is pandering to the wants and desires of the publisher he works for.

You might want to stop drinking the Kool-Aid, Heffay...I'm in this just as deep as you are as far as supporting this game, but I drew the line 6 months ago and vowed not to give PGI another cent until major things change and they start delivering on their all too often empty promises. It's time for PGI to put the "Stick" away and deliver the "Carrots" they have been promising this community since the game was opened up to the Founders. You of all people should be demanding this...you are a Founder, after all.

[Rizzwind]

Riptor, on 19 December 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Yes.. FIRST

Not about 3 to 6 times like PGI did.

Nor did they let decembre come and pass and didnt even mention that they had to push the module back because it wasnt ready for prime time, unlike PGI that anounced a date.. and the date came and went and they didnt lost a single word as to why. Nor did they ever aknowledged this when they came out to anounce the next completly unrealistic deadline.

Furthermore the Star citizen Devs did not lie to their customers. The module is there.. but with how much attention the game has garnered and how much backlash the hangar module has gotten i think its the right decision to polish the thing before releasing it.

Again, I atleast dont take offense to pushback when im explained and shown why it was pushed back. PGI however never had the intention to keep a single deadline from the beginning of open beta to release. Why do i know this? Because during release.. during their little presentation it became painfully obvious that pre production of CW hadnt even begun until that point. So all the dates that where named before launch? Lies. They knew they couldnt keep these dates from the beginning because they had at no point started work on CW

You cant just simply tell me that they didnt knew they wouldnt be able to make the 90 days after open beta deadline when they didnt even had a textfile with the concept done.

Had they played it straight from the beginning there sure would have been disent amongst the user base, but that would have been it. Not the complete rage clusertf... we have now.Thats how games development works.. all games get pushed back one way or another.

But lying to your user base so that they buy the next Mech package? Giving the phoenix mechs loyality point boost when you dont even know what these loyality points do as the very one who created that concept... that just takes the cake.

This and selling in game items when they don't even know if they still have hold of the IP for 2015 is just a bad joke. What would they have done had they not gotten the go head. Sure you got your package but the game would have ended before it was delivered. You think you would get your money back doubt it.

Bilbo, on 19 December 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Well, since they have only had the one deadline pass they can't possibly have missed more than that. I've put money into that project as well and I'm not particularly concerned, but I can't see using it as an example of how things should be done at this point.

True but you can't use a Pay to play game to go on for a free to play build. So way everyone keeps saying SC this and that Vers MWO is just wrong. Now if MWO was a box buy with single player as will sure. If anything it should be compared to like games. WoT, PS2,and War-thunder.

[Bilbo]

Rizzwind, on 19 December 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

This and selling in game items when they don't even know if they still have hold of the IP for 2015 is just a bad joke. What would they have done had they not gotten the go head. Sure you got your package but the game would have ended before it was delivered. You think you would get your money back doubt it.



True but you can't use a Pay to play game to go on for a free to play build. So way everyone keeps saying SC this and that Vers MWO is just wrong. Now if MWO was a box buy with single player as will sure. If anything it should be compared to like games. WoT, PS2,and War-thunder.

I generally try not to compare any game to another. The only question I ever ask is whether or not I enjoy playing it. Then, if I enjoy playing it, is what is on offer worth my money? What anyone else thinks about those two questions don't have any bearing on my own answers and I don't begrudge them theirs.

[Rizzwind]

Bilbo, on 19 December 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I generally try not to compare any game to another. The only question I ever ask is whether or not I enjoy playing it. Then, if I enjoy playing it, is what is on offer worth my money? What anyone else thinks about those two questions don't have any bearing on my own answers and I don't begrudge them theirs.

Ok so your posting on the way he feels why? If it's not going to change your feelings on it and it's not going to change his. Wouldn't your time be better spent playing the game. Or is this more fun then it is?

[Bilbo]

Rizzwind, on 19 December 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Ok so your posting on the way he feels why? If it's not going to change your feelings on it and it's not going to change his. Wouldn't your time be better spent playing the game. Or is this more fun then it is?

Can't play at the moment. I never said I wouldn't give my opinions on anything and I occasionally like to argue. You'll notice I don't make personal attacks or otherwise belittle his opinions while disagreeing with them. These are discussion forums after all.

[Rizzwind]

Bilbo, on 19 December 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Can't play at the moment. I never said I wouldn't give my opinions on anything and I occasionally like to argue. You'll notice I don't make personal attacks or otherwise belittle his opinions while disagreeing with them. These are discussion forums after all.

No they where before the change now there just policed to much for any real opinions to be stated. But for the most part all your really saying is your here because you like to argue for the hell of it. I can respect that. Now I know I can just skip over your posts like Heffay's.

[Corwin Maxwell]

what i am seeing here is some people coming to the defence of the undefendable and some trying to play "Devils Advocate" rather amatuerishly i might add. Also the pure devotion and will of these people that ignore truths, facts, etc. Thank god these people can't vote..oh wait some of them can...now that explains alot!....looks like some sheeple got out of the pen on the farm. Personally i never trust a zealot, nor a Dis Honest Badge wearer.

[Heffay]

Corwin Maxwell, on 19 December 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

what i am seeing here is some people coming to the defence of the undefendable and some trying to play "Devils Advocate" rather amatuerishly i might add. Also the pure devotion and will of these people that ignore truths, facts, etc. Thank god these people can't vote..oh wait some of them can...now that explains alot!....looks like some sheeple got out of the pen on the farm. Personally i never trust a zealot, nor a Dis Honest Badge wearer.

Undefendable?

You're declaring victory by defining the terms of the debate?

[Xigunder Blue]

A lie is something said that is designed to deliberately deceive. I actually do not think either PGI or Star Citizen had any intention of lying. PGI was trying to bring in money for the project and made some unwise statements that later proved to be impossible to fulfill. Star Citizen explained from the first that they would create modules of the game, release those modules during development and allow backers to play with them, providing testing, during the development. They plainly stated they had a dogfight module but it was incompatible with their final design criteria. They said that it was better to wait until they have a more stable and extensive version, announced this 2 weeks before their original module release and asked the backers to be patient a little longer. Friday they will have a livestream for the game development plus a look at the module they decided to delay.

Both companies are handling this in different ways. Star Citizen has shown day-to-day their crowdfunding totals ($34 million and going up) along with extensive updates, lore releases, dev Q&A forums, ideas and suggestions forums and on and on. I was happy to see the sudden release of fairly complete statements by PGI about CW and the balancing of Clan Mechs. Also the improvement of the 'Gold Mech" into a package. Hopefully this means they have decided to trust their base backers more than before and may even ease the other Clan Package costs.

Russ and Co. have to answer to their investors, probably some shadowy BOD. Chris and his team on Star Citizen answer to their backers who will also be their base players. SC forums are fun. Looking at this thread and other PGI forums is not. I hope things get better and the latest reveals from Russ ad PGI give me some hope.

[Corwin Maxwell]

Heffay, on 19 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

Undefendable?

You're declaring victory by defining the terms of the debate?

Wow Heffey that's rich coming from a zealot like you, concidering that is the only way you can debate, and for the record you lost the debate along time ago..you just haven't understood the simple concept yet.

[Greyfyl]

As long as there are people stupid enough to pay these kinds of prices (yes - stupid enough), there will always be PGI's out there trying (and evidently succeeding) to get people to pay robbery type prices for these games.

[Heffay]

Greyfyl, on 19 December 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

As long as there are people stupid enough to pay these kinds of prices (yes - stupid enough), there will always be PGI's out there trying (and evidently succeeding) to get people to pay robbery type prices for these games.

Welcome to the new world. You're going to be very confused for a decade or two.

[Riptor]

Xigunder Blue, on 19 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

A lie is something said that is designed to deliberately deceive. I actually do not think either PGI or Star Citizen had any intention of lying. PGI was trying to bring in money for the project and made some unwise statements that later proved to be impossible to fulfill. Star Citizen explained from the first that they would create modules of the game, release those modules during development and allow backers to play with them, providing testing, during the development. They plainly stated they had a dogfight module but it was incompatible with their final design criteria. They said that it was better to wait until they have a more stable and extensive version, announced this 2 weeks before their original module release and asked the backers to be patient a little longer. Friday they will have a livestream for the game development plus a look at the module they decided to delay.

Both companies are handling this in different ways. Star Citizen has shown day-to-day their crowdfunding totals ($34 million and going up) along with extensive updates, lore releases, dev Q&A forums, ideas and suggestions forums and on and on. I was happy to see the sudden release of fairly complete statements by PGI about CW and the balancing of Clan Mechs. Also the improvement of the 'Gold Mech" into a package. Hopefully this means they have decided to trust their base backers more than before and may even ease the other Clan Package costs.

Russ and Co. have to answer to their investors, probably some shadowy BOD. Chris and his team on Star Citizen answer to their backers who will also be their base players. SC forums are fun. Looking at this thread and other PGI forums is not. I hope things get better and the latest reveals from Russ ad PGI give me some hope.

When you know that you have not a single line of code for a big feature ready... havent even started working on the design document but still say things like "90 days after release" "in the next 6 months" what would you call it then?

It is a lie.. it doesnt matter for what reason. You knew beforehand that these dates are impossible to keep and yet you still went to your customer base and promised the impossible. That is the very definition of a lie. Mind you im talking about everything that was said pre launch cause it seems they have only "seriously" started working on things after their launch party.

But early open beta? That was a lie... that PC gamer interview in summer? That was a lie... the 3rd person debacle? That was a lie. They dont just finish the patch on the same day they introduce it you know.. and yet no one came onto the forums BEFORE they put it live and told us about no 1st person exclusive ques like they promised. If those things arent lies in your book you should never try to buy a used car on your own.