27 replies to this topic

[Deathsani]

I want to know why flamers don't have a purpose. Is there official word from the great overlords of balance as to why this weapons has so little purpose?

So far the list is up to looking super cool, using up an extra ton, and being obnoxious to 1pv players. What did this weapon do in the TT, and what do you think it should do now?

(P.S. this is the only energy weapon other than the LPL that I feel doesn't actually fulfill much of a role)

Edited by Deathsani, 13 January 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Roland]

The fear of a stunlock will basically prevent them from ever making the flamer into a useful weapon...

Despite the fact that in order for such a stunlock to take place, you would essentially have to dedicate a mech to sitting them torching a target constantly.... and would generally have to take so many flamers that it couldn't take other guns... and all of the OTHER mechs on the overheated mech's team would have to just ignore him and let him roast.

But despite all that? Can't let flamers shut folks down, because an overly simplistic view of game design has a "rule" that says "stuns aren't fun".

[FupDup]

In TT it dealt either a little bit of damage to your target, or a little bit of heat.


In MWO, they do both. Part of the problem, though, is that their overall damage per "turn" or whatever arbitrary internal hasn't been ramped up like it has for nearly all other weapons. A much larger issue is that their heat output on the target and shooter starts out tiny but rises exponentially. This means that there is a brief "wind up" period of hitting the target where the Flamer does absolutely no net heat to them. If you take the stream off for a single moment, the effect resets. To add insult to injury, the target can't go past 90% heat, but the shooter can overheat and die.

Edited by FupDup, 13 January 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Deathsani]

That would explain a lot.

[Deathlike]

Fixed the link so it would magically be "forum compliant".

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 13 January 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Fixed the link so it would magically be "forum compliant".

I fixed it above afterwards, so your post is now obsolete.

Edited by FupDup, 13 January 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Amsro]

The Flamer is very situation to be sure. I use it with 4 machine guns to be the ultimate troll.

[Deathsani]

That makes me wish for a "this post makes me sad" button.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 13 January 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

I fixed it above afterwards, so your post is now obsolete.

Doing the quick math on 57 SHS.

It means the heat capacity is at an amazing 87 (30 [base] + 57 SHS). Remember that efficiencies aren't applied here. So, even Cool Shot 9x9 (which will only be "Cool Shot 9") will not be effective at all (it'll only cool down slightly more than 10% of the max capacity - go add Cool Shot 6 into it, assuming you got the extra master slot).

This means you have a whole lot of wtf in how that heat scale accelerates the mech.

Here is the "improved" flamer test build:
STK-5M

61 SHS... I can't quite figure out how to get the extra tonnage for the STD 300 for the extra SHS slot, but that'll be close enough for now. That should have an amazing 91 pts of heat capacity.

Edit:
That means, a Cool Shot 6 and Cool Shot 9 will contribute to slightly less than 1/6 of its total heat capacity.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 January 2014 - 08:49 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Kinda wonder if the Heat can be dropped from 1.0 to 0.5, even 0.1 due to how it exponentially builds heat on the attacker. It is supposed to be tapping the reactor for a plasma release, so since damage is reduced from TT, why not do the same to Heat?

And I have no problem reducing the heat cap from 90% down to whatever lower % (say 70% maybe?) in return for a boost to at least 1 damage.

The other thing that could be neat is to extend the range so full damage out to 90 M, with reduced out to at least 120 or 180.

[Alcom Isst]

I believe that a rather large overhaul to the flamer is viable. The main flaw isn't in the flamer's lack of damage, but in how lackluster its additional effects are. The heat effects against a target only negate a few DHS, and the crit chance is a cheap addition to try and make the flamer useful. As such, I propose a flamer with a more traditional duration-debuff effect:

Flamer:

• 1 ton
  
• 0.70 DPS (continuous fire)
  
• 65 meter maximum range
  
• 1.00 HPS (flat)
  
• Each second of flamer damage reduces the maximum heat of a target by 1.2. Multiple flamers stack.
  
• Only a max of 12 heat can be eliminated by flamers.
  
• Each tick of maximum heat reduction lasts for 5 seconds before dissipating. Duration is severely reduced if the target overheats.

The idea here is to have a weapon that doesn't slowly counter heat dissipation, but rather reduces the maximum heat levels of the target. For the player using the flamer, this gives flamers an immediate and satisfying effect; one that might overheat a target if the target is bordering its maximum heat levels. The severely close range limits the scenarios in which flamers are useful, and the duration and max limitations prevents stunlock.

Light mechs can use the new flamer for a new harassing role. While a medium laser is a better option for light wolf-packs as the focus there is damage, flamers are good when a light is paired with a heavy brawler, as the light mech can reduce the firing capabilities of the brawler's target, while the brawler deals the damage. Heavier mechs can also use flamers to give themselves more utility at the cost of damage.

[nemesis271989]

Deathsani, on 13 January 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

I want to know why flamers don't have a purpose. Is there official word from the great overlords of balance as to why this weapons has so little purpose?

So far the list is up to looking super cool, using up an extra ton, and being obnoxious to 1pv players. What did this weapon do in the TT, and what do you think it should do now?

(P.S. this is the only energy weapon other than the LPL that I feel doesn't actually fulfill much of a role)

Remove Flamers?

[Joseph Mallan]

Flamer has a purpose. You just don't like how it is doing said purpose.

[Viges]

Flamers are fine! Just nerf all other weapons.

[Varent]

Reduce the damage drastically.
Increase the heat drastically.
Take away the crit rate or lower it to an amount it doesnt matter.
lower the amount of heat it produces on yourself.
Keep it at capping a mechs heat at 99%

[Joseph Mallan]

You do know that a Flamer or years caused more heat fr the user than it inflicted on the target right? Dumbest thing I ever saw in CBT!

[SaltBeef]

Flamers are anti infantry weapons but I think they should do less damage and add more heat to a targeted mech forcing a shutdown if the mech is unable to retreat. In mw4 you could get mechs overheated pretty easily with 2 or 3 of them.

Yes it will make you hate lights even more!

[wolf74]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6e11657e6f78b0b

Atlas RS with 57 Standard Heat Sink & 1 Flamer, Map Frozen City. Time to shutdown 1min 13sec from start of Firing the Flamer.

[Skyfaller]

This is how flamers should be in this game... been saying it for over a year but these devs never listen.

Heat effect:

- They don't generate heat on target mech. Instead they debuff (aka REDUCE) the target mech's rate of cool-down based on how many flamers are on target.

- 10% loss of cooling ability per flamer on target. This means an 8 flamer mech would reduce a target mech's cooling ability by 80%. This loss is applicable only to the heatsinks located in the armor section the flamers are hitting.

- The flamer 'builds up' from 1% to 10% depending on how long its been on target. The length of time is linked to the same calculations that make armor change in color when hit by lasers. Essentially, when the armor is red hot it means its at max and that = 10% cooling ability loss per flamer is achieved. Timing wise I think this happens around 6 seconds of flamer being on target.

- Flamer has a cone of fire similar to an LBX10 round out to 100m.

Damage & Range:

Range: 100m
Damage: DOT.
Duration of DOT: 10 seconds. Duration is replaced/refreshed per application.
DOT mechanics: A mech can only have 1 DOT applied to each armor section at any given time. Dots do not stack (1 flamer or 8 flamers or 20 flamers it matters not). DOT only starts to deliver damage when target armor section reaches max heat. DOT ceases to deliver damage when armor section falls under 50% of max heat.
DOT Damage: 1 damage per second.

Flamer Heat Generation:
The Flamer generates heat at the slow rate that it does now when it initially starts to build up heat in your mech. Basically 1% heat per 2 seconds of fire regardless of how many heatsinks you have or how many flamers you use.

Flamer Crit: Half the crit % of machine guns.

How this all works together:

You have a weapon that delivers cooling debuff depending how many flamers are equipped. It builds up heat on the user's mech slowly but steadily. Damage is delivered to target in a small cone of fire slowly and only after the armor sections reach red hot. DOT lasts for 10 seconds or until the armor section cools down to 50% of its 'max heat' color...or it is splashed in water. Flamer has half the crit change of machine guns to aid it in destroying internal components after the armor is removed.

This system does in no way or form make the flamer or even boating flamers be exploitable but it does however, make many mechs have the ability to specialize as debuffers in support of heavier mechs. There is no stun lock given that this is not affecting heat capacity but rather the cooling capacity of target mechs up to an 80% max debuff.

[Nacho Cat]

Random thought: what if the flamer came with ammo (ie "fuel")? This way the flamer could potentially be set up to deal more damage and more heat, but not ad infinitum the way it is now. It would exhaust it's fuel supply the same way acs run out of ammo. Say 1 ton of fuel = 100 litres or 200 seconds worth of flaming goodness (I put no thought into those numbers). I could see that being more viable with niche and strategic uses.

Anyway, just a thought.