22 replies to this topic

[ExplodedZombie]

Ok, I know this is a dead horse and everyone is beating it to death. Yes it is a module with huge benefits and no drawbacks. Rather than give you a wall of text, I'll describe my incredibly simple fix.

Anyone caught in the umbrella of ECM gets a debuff to their sensor range and target acquisition speed by 25%.

There. Now it has a drawback. It wouldn't affect the enemy very much, but it would affect friendlies under ECM big time.


Back story: I was just reading a BT novel and when a friendly turned on the ECM, they had to switch to short-range scanners because of the interference.

I'm sure a lot of trolls will scream "STUPID" or whatever nonsense but adding a drawback is the only way to keep ECM strong without being the most powerful item in game by a long shot.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 21 December 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Speed as in target acquisition?

I'd be fine with something like this.

[Rasc4l]

ExplodedZombie, on 21 December 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Ok, I know this is a dead horse and everyone is beating it to death. Yes it is a module with huge benefits and no drawbacks. Rather than give you a wall of text, I'll describe my simple fix.

Anyone caught in the umbrella of ECM gets a debuff to their sensor range and speed by 25%.

Now this is a good idea. I would happily add that to the current system or to the wall of text in my signature, which describes a bit more ECM/BAP changes although they are ultimately very simple.

[OneEyed Jack]

Most powerful? My Lasers, PPCs, ACs and even Gauss beat ECM without breaking a sweat.

I know which book you're talking about. It's the 2nd Blackthorns book. But the idea ranks right up there with Ghost Heat and a "sniper breath hold" delay timer on a vehicular-mounted weapon (but we'll call it a "charge" timer and studiously ignore questions about why it wasn't charging during the 4-second cycle time). Using a jamming signal that your own units aren't set to ignore makes about as much sense as using coded communications without giving your units the code key.

Imagine being the guy from the company that built it, trying to sell this thing to the military.

"Well, we have this device we want you to buy and install in your mechs. It might screw with the enemy if they're really close or trying to target you with guided weapons, but it will definitely screw with your own troops nearby. Sounds great, right?"

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference the ECM and it's current benefits and issues.

Currently the game revolves around sighting and detecting Mech's,
- if your only using long range sighting to engage with weapons your team/company may not know where the enemy is with out either seeing where your firing or getting text/chat messages.
- sensor detection relies on what items you have mounted to extend/enhance your systems.
- nothing is built into the game at this time to actively allow the pilot to instantaneously switch to a low signature output.
- none of the standard sensor systems have modes of operation. (high/low power)

[Example: two Mech's approach each other, at there maximum sensor detection range one switch's to low power sensor mode and disappears from the others detection/lock-on display. The low power Mech may loose the acquired enemy target but this now allows him to maneuver undetected much closer to where his last contact was located. - we now see a new level of tactics being used with out ECM being the key to this mode.]

1. Allow the ECM to have two ranges,
A. Low power creates the "bubble around you and any very close Mechs"
B. High power disrupts Enemy at distance and has some effect on friendly sensors in range.
(possibly incorporate in the piloting skill module ability to "tune out" friendly sensor frequencies.)
(could also add to pilot skills "disrupt narrow beam" mode when your Mech detects a lock on, or "forward sweep mode" to reduce full wide band broadcast which effect friendlies.)

2. Allow the current standard Mech sensor's to have two ranges,
A. Low power reduces your detection range but also lowers your detection signature to enemy's.
B. High power creates maximum sensor sweep but also generates a large signal for the enemy.
[this would tie in with the BAP being mounted]

3. Allow BAP to have two modes of operation,
A. When the BAP is in active detection mode it does everything we see now,
B. In passive mode disruption and detection range is reduced.
- But when in passive mode your signature is again lowered and more difficult to acquire.


All these features work towards reducing the actual electronic signature of your Mech, lowering the output and broadcast of any active detection/disruption systems. If your not on the enemy's sensors you have an advantage. intermittently "Pinging" your sensors to high power for a spot reference will allow you to temporarily know where the Enemy is but will also broadcast to them. This additional pilot skill set would allow for more tactical battles and the old Mark 1 eyeball combined with effective use of sensors only enhances battlefield information and skill.

Just some suggestions for allowing sensors to play a roll in how we fight and what tactics can be involved.

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 21 December 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[ExplodedZombie]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 December 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Most powerful? My Lasers, PPCs, ACs and even Gauss beat ECM without breaking a sweat.

I know which book you're talking about. It's the 2nd Blackthorns book. But the idea ranks right up there with Ghost Heat and a "sniper breath hold" delay timer on a vehicular-mounted weapon (but we'll call it a "charge" timer and studiously ignore questions about why it wasn't charging during the 4-second cycle time). Using a jamming signal that your own units aren't set to ignore makes about as much sense as using coded communications without giving your units the code key.

Imagine being the guy from the company that built it, trying to sell this thing to the military.

"Well, we have this device we want you to buy and install in your mechs. It might screw with the enemy if they're really close or trying to target you with guided weapons, but it will definitely screw with your own troops nearby. Sounds great, right?"

I was referring to the first Black Thorns book. Holy {Scrap} you were close, though.

To jam only the enemy would mean you know their specific frequency. And they could just switch frequencies to avoid it. No, it would have to be multi-spectrum, which would essentially mess up your stuff as well. With only a -25% penalty, it makes it still desirable for your team but never OP.

Remember that ECM keeps enemies from targeting you even when they aren't in the umbrella. As a single item, it is more powerful than any 1 of your lasers

And yes, "speed" refers to acquisition speed.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 21 December 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[ExplodedZombie]

9erRed, on 21 December 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Greetings all,

Reference the ECM and it's current benefits and issues.

Currently the game revolves around sighting and detecting Mech's,
- if your only using long range sighting to engage with weapons your team/company may not know where the enemy is with out either seeing where your firing or getting text/chat messages.
- sensor detection relies on what items you have mounted to extend/enhance your systems.
- nothing is built into the game at this time to actively allow the pilot to instantaneously switch to a low signature output.
- none of the standard sensor systems have modes of operation. (high/low power)

[Example: two Mech's approach each other, at there maximum sensor detection range one switch's to low power sensor mode and disappears from the others detection/lock-on display. The low power Mech may loose the acquired enemy target but this now allows him to maneuver undetected much closer to where his last contact was located. - we now see a new level of tactics being used with out ECM being the key to this mode.]

1. Allow the ECM to have two ranges,
A. Low power creates the "bubble around you and any very close Mechs"
B. High power disrupts Enemy at distance and has some effect on friendly sensors in range.
(possibly incorporate in the piloting skill module ability to "tune out" friendly sensor frequencies.)
(could also add to pilot skills "disrupt narrow beam" mode when your Mech detects a lock on, or "forward sweep mode" to reduce full wide band broadcast which effect friendlies.)

2. Allow the current standard Mech sensor's to have two ranges,
A. Low power reduces your detection range but also lowers your detection signature to enemy's.
B. High power creates maximum sensor sweep but also generates a large signal for the enemy.
[this would tie in with the BAP being mounted]

3. Allow BAP to have two modes of operation,
A. When the BAP is in active detection mode it does everything we see now,
B. In passive mode disruption and detection range is reduced.
- But when in passive mode your signature is again lowered and more difficult to acquire.


All these features work towards reducing the actual electronic signature of your Mech, lowering the output and broadcast of any active detection/disruption systems. If your not on the enemy's sensors you have an advantage. intermittently "Pinging" your sensors to high power for a spot reference will allow you to temporarily know where the Enemy is but will also broadcast to them. This additional pilot skill set would allow for more tactical battles and the old Mark 1 eyeball combined with effective use of sensors only enhances battlefield information and skill.

Just some suggestions for allowing sensors to play a roll in how we fight and what tactics can be involved.

9erRed

I rather like your suggestions. I wonder how easy this would be for mass consumption, though.

[nemesis271989]

Lease ECM alone, you completely counter it with BAP. BTW streak CATAPULTS and Stalkers can still shred ECM guy - lol?

[OneEyed Jack]

ExplodedZombie, on 21 December 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

To jam only the enemy would mean you know their specific frequency. And they could just switch frequencies to avoid it. No, it would have to be multi-spectrum, which would essentially mess up your stuff as well.

Not true at all. This isn't WW2. We have computers, and so does BT. Jamming is essentially filling the frequency(s) with static. But syncing your own computers to filter it out is pretty elementary. It's not really much more complex than using scrambled comms.. If both people have the code, it's like the scrambling isn't even there.

[ExplodedZombie]

nemesis271989, on 21 December 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Lease ECM alone, you completely counter it with BAP. BTW streak CATAPULTS and Stalkers can still shred ECM guy - lol?

"Completely Counter" ? Not really. It only broadens the range you can lock ECM mechs.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 21 December 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

You can't jam yourself. There isn't a EWO system in the world right now that does that and we're on par with the tech of Battletech.

[Oppresor]

I actually like this: "Well, we have this device we want you to buy and install in your mechs. It might screw with the enemy if they're really close or trying to target you with guided weapons, but it will definitely screw with your own troops nearby. Sounds great, right?" It's the first serious attempt that I have seen to level the effects of ECM. It's almost a taken for granted that ECM (at least the way it works in MWO) is a very underhand, almost cowardly device to fit to a Mech; so by making it have some disadvantages to the user and anyone under the umbrella we are making ECM a more acceptable, dare I say honourable device.

[Almond Brown]

Oppresor, on 21 December 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

I actually like this: "Well, we have this device we want you to buy and install in your mechs. It might screw with the enemy if they're really close or trying to target you with guided weapons, but it will definitely screw with your own troops nearby. Sounds great, right?" It's the first serious attempt that I have seen to level the effects of ECM. It's almost a taken for granted that ECM (at least the way it works in MWO) is a very underhand, almost cowardly device to fit to a Mech; so by making it have some disadvantages to the user and anyone under the umbrella we are making ECM a more acceptable, dare I say honourable device.

So want is wanted is to have ECM be a detriment to your forces as as well as the enemy and consider it even?

So instead of following a ECM capable Mech for its defined benefit, let's make it so you have to stay away from said Mech, your yell at any Mech carrying ECM to stay the "*uck" away from you, and everyone else on the Team (181m preferred at all times) as the fur flies?

Really...? LOL! That is a gonna work like a "Wrench" thrown into the cogs of a well oiled machine.

Do folks ever take the practical application of these crazy idea into account when formulating them, ever?

[Lykaon]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 December 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Most powerful? My Lasers, PPCs, ACs and even Gauss beat ECM without breaking a sweat.

Wow you have Lasers ACs and Gauss that...

Allow your team mates to detect ECM shielded mechs beyond 200m with sensors?

Allow your team mates to use lock on weapons without the need to use the ECM tax er I meand BAP?

Allow your team mates to freely use artemis and not be jammed by ECM?

Just by putting in some of these magical weapon systems the enemy mechs covered by ECM now display critical data so target choice is clear and concise for the drop commander to convey?

So if you are there with your magic guns new players are not confronted with the convoluted ECM mechanics and learn the ropes much faster?

With your magical guns ECM no longer presents a substantial obstical to the further development of information warfare?

Those magic guns level out the discrepency of ECM's impact on solo puggers when compared to VOIP using Premades that can circumvent much of ECM's intel jamming effects because they are on team speak?


I of course know that you mean that you can hit ECM shielded mechs when you see them with direct fire weapons and clearly don't give a damn about ECM's negative impact on other aspects of the game.

[Lykaon]

Oppresor, on 21 December 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

I actually like this: "Well, we have this device we want you to buy and install in your mechs. It might screw with the enemy if they're really close or trying to target you with guided weapons, but it will definitely screw with your own troops nearby. Sounds great, right?" It's the first serious attempt that I have seen to level the effects of ECM. It's almost a taken for granted that ECM (at least the way it works in MWO) is a very underhand, almost cowardly device to fit to a Mech; so by making it have some disadvantages to the user and anyone under the umbrella we are making ECM a more acceptable, dare I say honourable device.

Or we could explore the option to rework ECM functionality with the express purpose of including it in an Electronic Warfare system that utilizes support electronics like TAG,NARC,BAP and Command Consoles and is modified and inclusive of modules like UAV,Seismic sensors,Advance Sensor Range,Target info gathering modules,360 target retention etc.

Because what we got now is ECM>everything else info warfare related.The entire info warfare meta is stack ECM=win.

I for one am not satisfied with this state of affairs and would like some changes made to create a more interrelated information warfare mechanic.

I do not think that adding yet another "feature" to ECM is a good idea.ECM is already the most complex item in the game.

[Nation Uprise]

I was wondering. What if ECM wasn't always on. Like if it was changed into an equipment that had to be turned on when it is needed (when stealth in needed), and it would have a set amount of time it would stay on until it runs out and needs to recharge. Basically, only turn it on when you need it, and it isn't always on throughout the whole match; making it a tactical item for specific situations and not an "equip, forget, profit" item.

Edited by Nation Uprise, 22 December 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Deathlike]

Nation Uprise, on 22 December 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

I was wondering. What if ECM wasn't always on. Like if it was changed into an equipment that had to be turned on when it is needed (when stealth in needed), and it would have a set amount of time it would stay on until it runs out and needs to recharge. Basically, only turn it on when you need it, and it isn't always on throughout the whole match; making it a tactical item for specific situations and not an "equip, forget, profit" item.

It sounds nice, but it won't happen.

Because Paul.

[ExplodedZombie]

Almond Brown, on 22 December 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

So want is wanted is to have ECM be a detriment to your forces as as well as the enemy and consider it even?

So instead of following a ECM capable Mech for its defined benefit, let's make it so you have to stay away from said Mech, your yell at any Mech carrying ECM to stay the "*uck" away from you, and everyone else on the Team (181m preferred at all times) as the fur flies?

Really...? LOL! That is a gonna work like a "Wrench" thrown into the cogs of a well oiled machine.

Do folks ever take the practical application of these crazy idea into account when formulating them, ever?

Maybe you didn't read the OP. It would be a very slight detriment to your team, but is a huge one to the enemy. ECM is over powered. Have you not noticed? Seriously, take a minute to think about it. Which Atlas you gonna bring?

[OneEyed Jack]

Lykaon, on 22 December 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Wow you have Lasers ACs and Gauss that...

... that allow me to shoot stuff under ECM, anyway, rather than spouting pathetic mewling about how ECM is "the most powerful item in game by a long shot."

Yes. Yes, I do.

[Pjwned]

OneEyed Jack, on 22 December 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

... that allow me to shoot stuff under ECM, anyway, rather than spouting pathetic mewling about how ECM is "the most powerful item in game by a long shot."

Yes. Yes, I do.

That would be fine if it didn't also cripple your ability to send target info to your team and do all of those things in 1 item that weighs less than 2 tons.