30 replies to this topic

[Eflin]

Hello all,

I realize it has not come out yet... but I think it is inevitable that some dinky light is the last man standing and just runs around... and this comes from a primarily light pilot here (although I would still engage in above scenario)

To help minimize this and appease people who care about their K:D (why would they engage in 5 on 1? etc etc)... I think they should enable a retreat mechanic in skirmish mode where in at any time if an ENTIRE team (that is alive) is out of bounds they retreat. This might need to have one more qualifier that all such units must also not be within 500 meters of an enemy (so people can't just bail when being chased).

I think this would help reduce frustrations on all sides of the equation and still be applicable to CW mechanics down the road.

Thoughts?

[Bilbo]

Nope. Community wanted TDM. It's TDM they get. Down to the last ma....erm...Spider.

[Eflin]

Fair enough. I am just concerned lots of matches could become chores with the last man dinking around. I myself will just gloriously charge... (well evasively is likely a better way to put it) but I know that won't be the case for some.

Do people really need it to be to the last man standing? Or do they just not want capping ruining their stompy fun (or making them lose a match they were dominating) and want people to HAVE to engage them? I think it's the later and this idea would not hinder that at all... while curtailing one potential snag many have foreseen coming in previous discussions on capping/TDM mode.

[Roland]

I'd rather hunt down a spider if it means my team is free to maneuver anywhere on the map. Easily a worthwhile tradeoff.

At MOST it could waste a few minutes of time.

Seriously. That's the great "danger" here. That a spider would run away and end up wasting 4 minutes of your time.

The fact that people suggest that's something worth fearing is nonsensical.

[VanillaG]

The game mode for Team Death Match with the ability to end the game early if the other team is hiding is called Assault.

[Bilbo]

Roland, on 17 December 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I'd rather hunt down a spider if it means my team is free to maneuver anywhere on the map. Easily a worthwhile tradeoff.

At MOST it could waste a few minutes of time.

Seriously. That's the great "danger" here. That a spider would run away and end up wasting 4 minutes of your time.

The fact that people suggest that's something worth fearing is nonsensical.

Seams to me it will cut out even more maneuver and encourage both teams to mass everyone at a point. There will be no disincentive to do otherwise. We shall see though.

[Eflin]

VanillaG, on 17 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

The game mode for Team Death Match with the ability to end the game early if the other team is hiding is called Assault.

I'm not suggesting the winning team would retreat. I'm proposing the losing team would.. So the big difference is who wins by ending the match early. In assault the losing team can pull of an upset win AND there is incentive for people to avoid engagements. The result? A lot of unsatisfying matches where people rush cap and avoided fights... or a big upset loss because your mech is too slow to plod back to your base which is super frustrating.

In skirmish (with my proposed retreat option) the team that ends the match early still loses... they just can keep their precious k:d (which is the only reason people run away and hide sometimes in assault until the match times out). This retreat option will not harm the intent of skirmish at all... as there is still ZERO incentive to not duke it out (its the only way to win!).... but it will (hopefully) prevent the exact scenario that caused assault to have the base cap in the first place... a random light just running and hiding and causing people to have to wait out the match.

As Biblo pointed out... this mode is likely just going to be two team blobs plodding around and engaging. That is the smart way to play this mode. The team that spreads out is just going to get wiped out by the 12 man blob of the other team. I don't think this mode is going to result in more manuevering or freedom.

I appreciate all the thoughts though everyone and I hope I am wrong (about games becoming stagnant at the end with people running away). Hopefully this suggestion isn't even needed and skirmish works as is. I'm just skeptical is all.

[VanillaG]

Eflin, on 17 December 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I'm not suggesting the winning team would retreat. I'm proposing the losing team would.. So the big difference is who wins by ending the match early. In assault the losing team can pull of an upset win AND there is incentive for people to avoid engagements. The result? A lot of unsatisfying matches where people rush cap and avoided fights... or a big upset loss because your mech is too slow to plod back to your base which is super frustrating.

In skirmish (with my proposed retreat option) the team that ends the match early still loses... they just can keep their precious k:d (which is the only reason people run away and hide sometimes in assault until the match times out). This retreat option will not harm the intent of skirmish at all... as there is still ZERO incentive to not duke it out (its the only way to win!).... but it will (hopefully) prevent the exact scenario that caused assault to have the base cap in the first place... a random light just running and hiding and causing people to have to wait out the match.

As Biblo pointed out... this mode is likely just going to be two team blobs plodding around and engaging. That is the smart way to play this mode. The team that spreads out is just going to get wiped out by the 12 man blob of the other team. I don't think this mode is going to result in more manuevering or freedom.

I appreciate all the thoughts though everyone and I hope I am wrong (about games becoming stagnant at the end with people running away). Hopefully this suggestion isn't even needed and skirmish works as is. I'm just skeptical is all.

What makes you think that the pilot is running around is protecting his KDR and not just trolling the other team? Since you are relatively new here let me share a little history. Back in Closed Beta the original Assault mode was TDM and people screamed about how the one light would just hide so they put the base timer in to end the game in the circumstance. People started complaining about "CapWarrior Online" so they reintroduced the original TDM.

People will now have the ability to just kill, kill and/or end match on base timer, or kill and/or end match based on ticket count. Choose which style of match you want to play and play by those rules.

[Eflin]

VanillaG, on 17 December 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

What makes you think that the pilot is running around is protecting his KDR and not just trolling the other team? Since you are relatively new here let me share a little history. Back in Closed Beta the original Assault mode was TDM and people screamed about how the one light would just hide so they put the base timer in to end the game in the circumstance. People started complaining about "CapWarrior Online" so they reintroduced the original TDM.

People will now have the ability to just kill, kill and/or end match on base timer, or kill and/or end match based on ticket count. Choose which style of match you want to play and play by those rules.

Yeah I knew that was why capping was introduced in the first place but you are right that there is nothing to do about someone just being a jerk and making people wait. I guess time will tell. I'll certainly be playing plenty of skirmishes (and assault for that matter) moving forward and will see the results first hand.

[King Arthur IV]

i think this mode is going to fail hard. this is one instance the vocal minority didnt know what they were really asking for and mwo also decided to do.

when you play this mode, you will realize that the best tactic is to NEVER split up and snow ball matches will occur more regularly.
there will also be very little tactics since there is no cap to draw the enemy apart.

I could be wrong but in all the pug games iv seen, two prong attacks dont happen often and dont work well because it requires TWO much co-ordination.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 17 December 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Sandpit]

It's one of the QQs that coming I'm sure. I predicted this when they first announced DM

[Roadbeer]

PGI Listens.
Be careful of what you wish for.

[Roland]

Bilbo, on 17 December 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Seams to me it will cut out even more maneuver and encourage both teams to mass everyone at a point. There will be no disincentive to do otherwise. We shall see though.

The disincentive to simply rush the enemy is that, when you are not tied down to defending a red square, you are free to maneuver into a position where you have an advantage.

You'll actually be able to flank the enemy with your main force, without having to worry about them simply moving directly onto your base.

We played TDM as the basis for league play in planetary leagues in mechwarrior 4 for, literally, years.

Games were always drawn out maneuvering exercises, which sometimes took upward of an hour to play out. Infinitely more complex and deep than anything seen in MWO to date.

Most folks who think that TDM means just rush at the enemy don't actually understand how to play the game... because doing that will make you lose.

[DirePhoenix]

Roland, on 17 December 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Most folks who think that TDM means just rush at the enemy don't actually understand how to play the game... because doing that will make you lose.

Which is why people are saying in this thread that people will instead huddle up ("snowball") and just sit in their tight defense balls waiting for the other side to show up. If you spread out to scout, your scouts will be dead. Then you have fewer mechs on your side and are weaker. It becomes a game of "wait the last man out" or "who loses their patience waiting for the enemy first". A perfect game for AFKers to just sit until they see/hear some noise. Or, if the spawns are grouped like they have been for the rest of the game, just sit in their spawn group until contact is made.

[Firewuff]

Heheh... It happened.... They got what they wanted and now they don't like it.... Idiots.

[MustrumRidcully]

Retreat
A team can unilaterally declare a retreat when the following conditions are met:
o No more than 4 team members are surviving.
o The enemy team has 4 or more kills than the team that wishes to retreat.
A retreat is considered a loss for the retreating team and a win for the winning team. Each winning team member earns XP and C-Bills for each retreating survivor.

Surrender
A team can offer to surrender if one of the following conditions are met if:
o No more than 4 team members are surviving.
o The enemy team has 4 or more kills that wishes to surrender.
A retreat is considered a loss for the retreating team and a win for the winning team. Each winning team member earns XP and C-Bills for each retreating survivor.

To offer a surrender, the team must agree.
The enemy team must agree to the surrender.

Forced Retreat
A retreat is forced on a team when the following conditions are met:
o The team has less than 4 survivors
o No kill has occured for at least two minutes.
o No damage was dealt to the enemy team for at least one minute.

Team Decision Making
The Team Commander suggests a retreat, surrender or accepting or declining the enemies surrender. A single lance commander (which cannot be the team commander) must agree with his decision. If no lance commanders are available, the team commander decides on his own.
An offering of surrender stays open for 60 seconds and can only be retracted before that time if the team that offered the surrender achieved a kill.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 December 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm...for the retreat the team must reach a specified location - other wise it isn't a retreat.
The winning team - didn't earn anything for members that retreat but the damage dealt.

The surrender option happens on an instant. The winning team get salvage for the surrendered Mech too.

However - optimal - is an automatic setting - the trigger for forced retreat - is fired when one of its conditions is full filled.
The team that is forced to retreat - must retreat - mechs that are still on the map after 2min - will power down automatically.
A mech that is powered down while retreat is active - is automatic a surrender (no power up possible)

A team can - try to overwhelm the enemy instead of retreating.

XP and CBills have to be calculated in a proper way.

the XP and Cbill gain for beeing killed must be the lowest
the XP gain of surrender must be higher but Cbill can stay the same
successful retreat gives most XP and Cbills for the loosing team

[GRiPSViGiL]

Bad game mode that is essentially Assault 2.0 without the cap point. Stale popart Assault mech game mode with little intuitive anything.

I just want to be able to to choose Assault and Conquest when I queue.

[chrx]

I would propose that when the losing team is down to one mech, a 60 sec timer would start. When the time is gone the match will end, unless the remaining player obtains a kill and thus resets the timer.

[MountainCopper]

I don't get, why people wanted this mode. It is Assault without the possibility for the team which already lost some Mechs, to win the game. If you can't watch your base or even the paths to it, that might be something to work on as a team.

Also, in Assault matches, the team with 2 or 4 Mechs down already lost the game in 19/20 cases. And this loss once in a while is the reason to offer this new mode?
I played some games in skirmish... and it's always all 12 people in one ball and if you lost 2 people, the other team wins. AND it further discourages splitting up on the map. One lance vs another lance fighting somewhere else the rest of the team is. Something the devs tried to encourage more with the new spawn points...
Also I noticed some weird kind of reluctance to engage the enemy. Players too frightened to get damaged in this game mode...

I don't like it and will deselect it, wherever I can.

Edited by GoldenFleece, 18 December 2013 - 02:08 AM.