1080 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

I've got a potential convergence solution. It might first seem like a Cone of Fire, but it's not - I assure you.

Change our targeting reticule to a Dot in the center of a Circle. If you chain-fire weapons, they go where the dot is pointing. The magic happens if you fire more than one weapon at once.

If you've got your cross hairs over an enemy mech, it is likely that different components (CT, LT, RT, Arms, Legs) will simultaneously be occupying the Circle [I don't mean to suggest that the Circle should be big enough to fit an entire mech into, but it should be large enough that only getting 1 component inside it takes a high degree of skill]. The Circle does not include empty space. The weapons that you're firing in a group each represent a proportion of the damage being dealt (for instance, if you're firing 2 Medium Lasers, they're each doing 50% of the damage).

Essentially what this system does is try to match up the damage you're doing with the components in the Circle. For Example: if you're firing an AC/10 and 2 ML, while the Circle is 75% filled by CT and 25% filled by LT, the AC/10 and 1 ML (75% of the damage) will be aimed at the CT and 1 ML (25% of the damage) will be aimed at the LT. This example is (obviously) a little too perfect, but it serves to illustrate a point. Rounding will need to occur in the actual game environment, which is why I have the following Rounding Rules:

• If you fire fewer weapons than there are components in the Circle, the components occupying the least amount of space are ignored (So if you were firing 2 weapons at 3 components that occupied 85%, 10% and 5% of the circle, the 5% component would be ignored)
  
• If there are more weapons than there are components, at least two components must be struck

The system can also be set to work slightly differently if the user fires weapons totaling above X amount of damage. So for instance, if there was a 20 damage limit and you fired an AC/10, AC/5 and 2 ML (totaling 25 damage) when the Circle is 75% CT and 25% LT, each of the weapons has a 75% chance to be aimed at the CT and a 25% chance to be aimed at the LT.

So this system has three "firing modes":

• Pinpoint Accuracy for Single Fired / Chain Fired Weapons
  
• Controlled Accuracy for Multiple Weapons under X Damage
  
• Random Accuracy for Multiple Weapons above X Damage

A few extra notes:

• If the Dot is on an enemy mech, you're guaranteed a hit. There's not "there was empty space in the circle so the game decided to fire a shot that misses". The Circle discounts empty space before calculating what proportion each component takes up inside of it.
  
• If the Dot is not over a target then all weapons fire converges instantly on the Dot when the trigger is pulled
  
• LBX, SRM and LRM weapons are exempt from this system
  
• The system resets every 0.5 seconds. This means that if you fire a weapon and then immediately fire another, the system will distribute the second shot according as described above.

I would suggest putting the damage cap at 20. This lets the AC/20 retain its status as the king of pinpoint damage.

The advantages of this system are that players can know where their shots will be aimed before they pull the trigger (if they know their weapons and their targets hitboxes and they're firing weapons that total less than X damage).

There's ways to modify this system as well: the circle could grow / shrink in size depending on what you're targeting (so it's a smaller circle when targeting lights and larger when targeting assaults), if you're moving / if they're moving, jump jet use, heat levels, range, etc...

It would even allow us to add C3 in a meaningful way (IE: if you have an ally who has C3 and currently has a smaller Circle than you, you get to use their Circle when firing at their target).

[Almond Brown]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Its a tool. it TECHNICALLY does like.. 1 damage I think... but its a tool.

that said SRMS are balance. Hit detection is just wonky. Once hit detection comes back they are gonna be scary as hell.

Just so we have real data here and this **** doesn't get all sideways, like usual. Here is the data from the in-game data stats file.

Quote

<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="2" type="Missile" projectileclass="narc" numFiring="1" damage="0.0" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.0"

Please note bolded. Narc is not a weapon.

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 January 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[stjobe]

Almond Brown, on 03 January 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Just so we have real data here and this **** doesn't get all sideways, like usual. Here is the data from the in-game data stats file.



Please note bolded. Narc is not a weapon.

I'm always amazed when people don't take the 30 seconds it takes to load up smurfy in another browser tab and actually check before they post - especially in weapon balance threads...

This section would be relevant for the GP post: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#weapon_utils

"Support and utility weapons". Narc, TAG, AMS. Neither Narc nor TAG does any damage.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 03 January 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Light(er) mechs are at a disadvantage currently because they are unable to mount ACs. Having ACs do burst fire won't change that.


So you are saying this would make mediums and heavies better? Awesome! Lights would be just as susceptible to ACs as they are to beam damage right now, but would be worried about damage adding up instead of luck-or-death dodging like they are currently. Also awesome.


So the most complained about meta in the game would be removed and jump jets would go back to simply being a mobility tool again? Darnit.... /sarcasm


The heat system needs addressed as well, I agree. If all weapons are spreading damage relatively equally, you can then remove ghost heat, fix the heat system, and start balancing energy vs ballistics the way they should be: heat vs ammo/weight.


You are assuming people wouldn't use ACs anymore, which is incorrect. People use LRMs currently, and they are by far the least "meta" system. People also use SRMs, flamers and MGs still. I don't think any change to ACs will make everyone completely stop using them, so stop with the sky is falling stuff, lol.


I don't brawl with my LLs, so I'm not sure how making ACs function like them will make it a brawl fest. The best brawlers right now are the front-loaded damage mechs, just like they are the best snipers currently for the same reason.

Light mechs are not at a disadvantage. Generally I have a rough idea of 'pulling your weight' when it comes to mechs. Ive always felt it should be additive in what you are expected to do damage wise. The large chasis should be pulling higher numbers then the lower chasis, the lower chasis add to the game by flanking, scouting, etc. I would say there is sometimes an exception for the assaults since often they are asked to be the first through the breach and take damage and die for the glory of the team. If Im having a 'decent' game on a light mech im pulling about 300+ damage and a kill or two, some assits, etc. If im having a decent game on an assault usually its 2-3 kills, 500+ damage.

Regarding where mechs are at right now there is kinda a heirarchy....

--Lights Beat assauls and Sometimes heavies and lose to mediums

--Mediums Beat lights and sometimes assaults and lose to heavies

--Heavies beat mediums and sometimes lights and lose to Assaults

--Assaults beat Heavies and sometimes Mediums and lose to Lights

I dont like the last bit cause frankly I feel assaults should destroy lights... but it is what it is and I suppose its balanced. I admit thats just the Battletech Fan in my heart screaming no. Now regardless of that, heavies dont need to be better... why do heavies need to be better? There is no reason at all. They are in a good place. I would say we have to disagree on the light thing though. As a light pilot at times I understand I need to move quickly and fast and stay behind the assualt to beat him. i need to use my speed and piloting ability to kill the opponent and yes every once in a blue moon the assault pilot will get lucky if he has a large caliber weapon or a I play poorly. This is cost of doing business. 9 timies out of 10 im still going to win that matchup.

Regarding jump sniping. Just because you dont like it is not a reason to remove it. I dont like it either. In fact I hate it. I still think it needs to be there. It needs to be a part of the game because that allows for another way to play. It also encourages more players. Besides there are many ways (as I stated) to change this and make it not as prevalent without changing weapons as a whole. Change jump jets and you fix this (just dont change it to the point that its impossible to jump snipe, make it harder)

Regarding heat. I like ghost heat, it prevents huge alphas. Trust me you dont want me hitting you in a jenner with 6 large lasers and tracking you multiple times. It will just create the same issue that has been complained about with alphas.There was a very valid reaason this was done the wayit was to energy weapons because you were gaining alphas that were even more ridiculously. In addition to that we might as well not be playing a game with a mechwarrior tag at all if the changes are going to be THAT extreme that you hve to rework all the heat as well to make room for the new op of lasers wich was never the case in any lore.

And yes with that in mind. I know I would not use ac anymore. Unless you drastically reduced there weight and then upped there ammo. But then the argument again comes back to.. why would we be playing a game with a mechwarrior tag. If that would be the case then I might as well go play planetside or world of tanks. YOu would lose a huge player base on thise with all the whales and alot of the hardcore battletech fans just shaking there heads and walking away as you lose all battletech feel whatsoever.


That said.. I do brawl with large lasers and with medium lasers. quite extensively. and I do very very well. I also boat large lasers. My boats and many of my brawlers would be the new op. I think thats proven by my posts alone considering what damage I can put up with them now.

I again say.. I think these are problems.

stjobe, on 03 January 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm always amazed when people don't take the 30 seconds it takes to load up smurfy in another browser tab and actually check before they post - especially in weapon balance threads...

I post primarly at work or from the phone. Not a viable option as much as I would like it to be.

(edit to hierarchy because im still waking up)

Edited by Varent, 03 January 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Its gone back and forth for awhile... it always will thats part of gaming, the nerf bat swings both ways.

I still say its not the weapons, it the way jump jets function currently and are implimented.

In Universe only a small handful of warriors could jump and fire. PGI should only allow such a tactic to the top 10-20 players max. That would also put an end to all the "I am a top ranked" Blah blah blah!" Are you allowed to Pop Tart? You ain't all that then!

[Cimarb]

Lol, we are so far away from each other it's humorous.

Jump jets had shake added to them - people adjusted and it is still a problem because that was not the issue that needed to be fixed. No change to jump jets, aside of removing them completely, will eliminate jump sniping. Only changing the weapons used will do that.
Ghost heat was added to prevent alphas - people adjusted (2 ERPPCs + 2 PPCs instead of 4 of the same) and it is still a problem because that was not the issue that needed to be fixed. I still do just as well with my AC40 jäger and all I had to do with my HGN was switch from Gauss+2ERPPC to an ERPPC+2AC5 setup to pull the same numbers with it. I'll get into this more below.

All mechs are at a disadvantage in some way. The heavier the mech, though, the less skill it takes to pilot them "adequately". As you gain basic skills, you can find the mech that fits your playstyle better, but the larger mechs give a lot more breathing room for mistakes regardless of skill level. Lighter mechs are at a severe disadvantage in weaponry as well simply because they are not able to mount large weapons like ACs. If they could, the front load damage issue would be even worse. That is what I meant by them being at a disadvantage.

The heat system needs changed. It isn't going to be, simply because PGI loves their horrible system for some reason, but it needs to be. I should not be able to heat my mech all the way up until shutdown without any penalties. I should not be able to gut myself with an alpha fired right at max heat either. There should be penalties for running hot, not "all good until I hit meltdown". I don't want to derail the thread with talk about heat, but it needs fixed separately.

EDIT: corrected typo - I meant "heavier the mech", not "lighter the mech"

Edited by Cimarb, 04 January 2014 - 01:05 PM.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 03 January 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Lol, we are so far away from each other it's humorous.

Jump jets had shake added to them - people adjusted and it is still a problem because that was not the issue that needed to be fixed. No change to jump jets, aside of removing them completely, will eliminate jump sniping. Only changing the weapons used will do that.
Ghost heat was added to prevent alphas - people adjusted (2 ERPPCs + 2 PPCs instead of 4 of the same) and it is still a problem because that was not the issue that needed to be fixed. I still do just as well with my AC40 jäger and all I had to do with my HGN was switch from Gauss+2ERPPC to an ERPPC+2AC5 setup to pull the same numbers with it. I'll get into this more below.

All mechs are at a disadvantage in some way. The lighter the mech, though, the less skill it takes to pilot them "adequately". As you gain basic skills, you can find the mech that fits your playstyle better, but the larger mechs give a lot more breathing room for mistakes regardless of skill level. Lighter mechs are at a severe disadvantage in weaponry as well simply because they are not able to mount large weapons like ACs. If they could, the front load damage issue would be even worse. That is what I meant by them being at a disadvantage.

The heat system needs changed. It isn't going to be, simply because PGI loves their horrible system for some reason, but it needs to be. I should not be able to heat my mech all the way up until shutdown without any penalties. I should not be able to gut myself with an alpha fired right at max heat either. There should be penalties for running hot, not "all good until I hit meltdown". I don't want to derail the thread with talk about heat, but it needs fixed separately.

For the first part we are on two seperate pages regarding jump sniping. While I dont like it. I feel it needs to exist. That Said, I can give you several mathmatical ways to alter jump jets that would force jump sniping to become a small percentage without altering anything in the game regarding how jump jets function currently. It would specifically target just how the shake functions within the cockpit.

http://mwomercs.com/...-one-easy-step/

I would say as you get to higher skill levels... its a toss up.... Ive seen assault mech pilots that amaze me... ive seen light mech pilots that amaze me.... Frankly I dont want to make that call on where the skill/mech weight lays.. .just because honestly I think it can be argued many directions.

I will say that there are numerous heat threads... I am sad we fall on the oppostive line of that one though.. I like alot of your posts Cim. I like where you are coming from.

[Joseph Mallan]

Actually not allowing us to fire while in the air would end Pop Tarting quite effectively.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Actually not allowing us to fire while in the air would end Pop Tarting quite effectively.

Depends if you want to end it or 'limit' it.

[Trip Hammer]

I've thought for a while that there needed to be changes in the way projectiles work in this game. Largely because of Game Lore and from previous game's (specifically MW4).

From Sarna.net (which got it from Battletech)
"Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts."

Changing the Autocannons so that they fired a burst of bullets in a stream would be a really big change and many would not like it but I for one would welcome it. I would also like to see the re-fire rates of the AC/2 and AC/5 slowed down. [/color]

As far as the PPC/ERPPC goes....

The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor. Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors. The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat. PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

Turning the PPC into a stream so that it resembled a large bolt that could impact several parts of the mech would be welcome as well, and if we had the option to disengage the inhibitor that would really add a risk to reward option to the game that would be cool as well.

That would leave the LB 10-X (at least as its currently implemented) and the Gauss Rifle as the only direct fire pinpoint damage weapons in the game, which I am OK with.

I realize that many people here are going to jump me for referencing the TT game but please understand. I realize that not everything from the TT is going to translate and therefore PGI shouldnt waste time trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. I get it. However I think that making these changes would make these weapons more balanced and require more skill to use and overall would help game balance.

Just my two cents worth.

Edited by The Faceless, 03 January 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Depends if you want to end it or 'limit' it.

I could care less. I just mutter PULL every time I see a Mech pop up!

[Varent]

The Faceless, on 03 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I've thought for a while that there needed to be changes in the way projectiles work in this game. Largely because of Game Lore and from previous game's (specifically MW4).

From Sarna.net (which got it from Battletech)
"Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts."

Changing the Autocannons so that they fired a burst of bullets in a stream would be a really big change and many would not like it but I for one would welcome it. I would also like to see the re-fire rates of the AC/2 and AC/5 slowed down. [/color]

As far as the PPC/ERPPC goes....

The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor. Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors. The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat. PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

Turning the PPC into a stream so that it resembled a large bolt that could impact several parts of the mech would be welcome as well, and if we had the option to disengage the inhibitor that would really add a risk to reward option to the game that would be cool as well.

That would leave the LB 10-X (at least as its currently implemented) and the Gauss Rifle as the only direct fire pinpoint damage weapons in the game, which I am OK with.

I realize that many people here are going to jump me for referencing the TT game but please understand. I realize that not everything from the TT is going to translate and therefore PGI shouldnt waste time trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. I get it. However I think that making these changes would make these weapons more balanced and require more skill to use and overall would help game balance.

Just my two cents worth.

From Sarna, Description of an AC-20.

Description
The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Singly or in Bursts is what I read.

That said Sarna is a little odd with there multitude of descriptions and loose definitions. Its become very apparent in these arguments.

Bottom line Streaming would make it more of a simulation where as The Single round makes it more of a shooter. In todays market a shooter is alot more marketable. That alone is probly the reason it was implimented that way. Regardless of the fact that it also offers varying weapon types and also makes lasers not op.

[Sandpit]

Why not just prevent convergence while jumping and maybe lock arms when jets are engaged until the mech touches down again?
Seems to me that solves a lot of the QQ about poptarting

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

From Sarna, Description of an AC-20.

Description
The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Singly or in Bursts is what I read.

That said Sarna is a little odd with there multitude of descriptions and loose definitions. Its become very apparent in these arguments.

Bottom line Streaming would make it more of a simulation where as The Single round makes it more of a shooter. In todays market a shooter is alot more marketable. That alone is probly the reason it was implimented that way. Regardless of the fact that it also offers varying weapon types and also makes lasers not op.

I would prefer ACs to be somewhere closer to this...but not a stream like the current MG, a short burst that does the same damage that is much higher than TT. Some actual Dakka would be nice, since we can't stagger fire AC2s anymore.

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Why not just prevent convergence while jumping and maybe lock arms when jets are engaged until the mech touches down again?
Seems to me that solves a lot of the QQ about poptarting

That actually wouldnt solve many of the issues. I keep my arms locked alot of the time. Also many mechs have alot of there firepower in torso sections so they could still fire 2 ppc from one torso location, etc.

Mcgral18, on 03 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

I would prefer ACs to be somewhere closer to this...but not a stream like the current MG, a short burst that does the same damage that is much higher than TT. Some actual Dakka would be nice, since we can't stagger fire AC2s anymore.

That would make them exactly like lasers just slightly less duration. That would not fit for there weight requirements.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

That actually wouldnt solve many of the issues. I keep my arms locked alot of the time. Also many mechs have alot of there firepower in torso sections so they could still fire 2 ppc from one torso location, etc.



That would make them exactly like lasers just slightly less duration. That would not fit for there weight requirements.

That's where the no convergence comes in. You'll have to be REALLY good to pop off multiple shots while jumping but highly skilled players will still have the ability to do some crack shooting

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

That actually wouldnt solve many of the issues. I keep my arms locked alot of the time. Also many mechs have alot of there firepower in torso sections so they could still fire 2 ppc from one torso location, etc.



That would make them exactly like lasers just slightly less duration. That would not fit for there weight requirements.

In the way that the MG is the same as a laser. It's hitscan and has 2X range. They would be sufficiently different, unlike ACs and PPCs.

Although burst length...longer or shorter than Pulse lasers?

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

That's where the no convergence comes in. You'll have to be REALLY good to pop off multiple shots while jumping but highly skilled players will still have the ability to do some crack shooting

I forsee alot of players just using mech chasis that have all there weapons torso mounted and still jump sniping... c.c That would just be a bandaid over the major problem of jump jets needing a change.

[Trip Hammer]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

From Sarna, Description of an AC-20.

Description
The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Singly or in Bursts is what I read.

That said Sarna is a little odd with there multitude of descriptions and loose definitions. Its become very apparent in these arguments.

Bottom line Streaming would make it more of a simulation where as The Single round makes it more of a shooter. In todays market a shooter is alot more marketable. That alone is probly the reason it was implimented that way. Regardless of the fact that it also offers varying weapon types and also makes lasers not op.

You are correct that it could be read either way and that the single round DOES fit the shooter model better but I really feel that this game would be better off without the twitch shooter gaming mechanic being a dominating the way the game is played (which seems to be the way a lot of people are currently playing the game). Besides, if they went with a short burst of rounds that could impact multiple areas of a mech (even if the burst was shorter than the current laser duration's) it could help.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

If PGI really wanted to do something (which they don't appear to) they could always just drop ACs range down to 2X and see what happens.
As for poptarting, its all part of the bad implementation of JJs. 1 should not have such a great effect and a large number (5 or more) should have a greater effect. I find them more useful in a medium for jump brawling/avoidance.