1080 replies to this topic

[mania3c]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Exactly my point. People using Ballistics should be running out of ammo all the time. You should have little or no ammo left by the end of a match.

This is something what is hard to balance..

If people will be running out of ammo, they will just pack more ammo and customize mech accordingly..they will make this all the time...everytime ammo will be nerfed.. so How much you want to nerf it?

[Varent]

anyways, not gonna reread 3 more pages to catch up on the thread, just responding from here on out. But that said, anyone else happy about the ac10 and ac20 changes? Makes em more brawler oriented and less jump sniping oriented nice change I feel. Thoughts?

[Dock Steward]

mania3c, on 07 January 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

This is something what is hard to balance..

If people will be running out of ammo, they will just pack more ammo and customize mech accordingly..they will make this all the time...everytime ammo will be nerfed.. so How much you want to nerf it?

How much of a nerf depends on the specific weapon. Each Ballistic weapon right now has a different degree of balance between Risk/Reward. AC/2's seem okay, AC/10's seem okay. AC/20's and AC/5's probably need more of a nerf. I'd guess, nerf AC/20 ammo to 4 shots per ton, and nerf AC/5 ammo to 20? Needs testing to really find the right spot.

Point is, yeah, people will just take more ammo, but that's easier said then done. Sometimes you can just swap an engine and lose very little speed, but sometimes you don't have the critical slots and something else will have to go. People need to be making sacrifices in order to have a comfortable amount of ammo, right now, for the most part, they don't have to.

[mania3c]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

How much of a nerf depends on the specific weapon. Each Ballistic weapon right now has a different degree of balance between Risk/Reward. AC/2's seem okay, AC/10's seem okay. AC/20's and AC/5's probably need more of a nerf. I'd guess, nerf AC/20 ammo to 4 shots per ton, and nerf AC/5 ammo to 20? Needs testing to really find the right spot.

Point is, yeah, people will just take more ammo, but that's easier said then done. Sometimes you can just swap an engine and lose very little speed, but sometimes you don't have the critical slots and something else will have to go. People need to be making sacrifices in order to have a comfortable amount of ammo, right now, for the most part, they don't have to.

Current ammo per tonnage is balanced around damage.. this is probably the best way to balance it (150 damage average per ton IIRC)..

Honestly..it's not really that much... 150 possible damage if all shots will hit within optimal range seems pretty limiting ..or you feel that 7 shots per ton for AC 20 or 10 shots for gauss is too much?

While I see your point, I think we really can't shuffle with ammo much..nor it should be major balancing factor of the game..If anything.. heat-sinks should be more effective..

Edited by mania3c, 07 January 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[Dock Steward]

mania3c, on 07 January 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Current ammo per tonnage is balanced around damage.. this is probably the best way to balance it (150 damage average per ton IIRC)..

Damage per ton of ammo already varies between type (albeit marginally). If we accept that balance doesn't always look nice on paper, an ammo nerf specific to each individual weapon could work to nerf those that need it and not punish those that don't.

[Sandpit]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Exactly my point. People using Ballistics should be running out of ammo all the time. You should have little or no ammo left by the end of a match.

I'm not saying it shouldnt' be a factor, I'm just saying that nerfing the ammo isn't going to change things.

Varent, on 07 January 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

anyways, not gonna reread 3 more pages to catch up on the thread, just responding from here on out. But that said, anyone else happy about the ac10 and ac20 changes? Makes em more brawler oriented and less jump sniping oriented nice change I feel. Thoughts?

I'm withholding judgement on how it works until I have some time to play with it. Until then I'm on the fence about it. It COULD help but it won't change how it functions in a brawl which is where most people are having an issue (regardless of my opinion on it)

[mania3c]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Damage per ton of ammo already varies between type (albeit marginally). If we accept that balance doesn't always look nice on paper, an ammo nerf specific to each individual weapon could work to nerf those that need it and not punish those that don't.

Only AC 20 has different ammo efficiency per tonnage ..unless something changed..

I understand...but well.. this is how people play..they really don't want to care about ammo much during match..they already made this considerations when they were building mechs... so I believe...people will be either able to pack this much ammo so they are not afraid to running out of ammo in every match ..or they will just stop using ACs.. but of course..this is my opinion (based on experience)

[Dock Steward]

Sandpit, on 07 January 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

I'm not saying it shouldnt' be a factor, I'm just saying that nerfing the ammo isn't going to change things.

It might not, you might be right. I think the trickle down effect would certainly affect things though. Everything. If a HGN-733c (2PPC & 2AC/5) with nerfed ammo wanted to add more tons of ammo, it would have to open up not just weight, but critical slots. The only thing you can do in that situation is take off Heat Sinks or Endo Steel. So you either live with less ammo than you need, and fire when you KNOW you have the shot (probably wait till enemy gets a bit closer), or you live with less heat-effective PPC's, or you take off ES and really have to downgrade your speed, nerfing your effectiveness in Brawling range.

Ammo nerf seems like it would barely change anything, but if you name a ballistic centered build, I'll show you what an ammo nerf really can do in practice.

[Sybreed]

I'd rather have all weapons except for the PPC and Gauss be fast firing weapons with their damage calculated so they deal it in a 5 seconds turn. It would make the battles more epic and the game more fun.

[Dock Steward]

mania3c, on 07 January 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

..or they will just stop using ACs..

Fewer AC's on the field still equates to less front-loaded pin-point damage being done. Though, to be clear, the idea is not to nerf ammo to the point that no one plays the weapon.

[Varent]

Sybreed, on 07 January 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'd rather have all weapons except for the PPC and Gauss be fast firing weapons with their damage calculated so they deal it in a 5 seconds turn. It would make the battles more epic and the game more fun.

Define epic? just long drawn out battles arent necesarily as epic as devastating fire power being thrown back and forth.

Personally I like the ac just the way they are. I feel there needs to be a diversity of weapon styles. Besides that will do nothing to stop jump sniping.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 07 January 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

Define epic? just long drawn out battles arent necesarily as epic as devastating fire power being thrown back and forth.

Personally I like the ac just the way they are. I feel there needs to be a diversity of weapon styles. Besides that will do nothing to stop jump sniping.

That's also assuming you find something "wrong" with jump sniping.

That's where I think we run into issues. We have people who want something changed due to a tactic being used as opposed to the weapon's stats

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 07 January 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

That's also assuming you find something "wrong" with jump sniping.

That's where I think we run into issues. We have people who want something changed due to a tactic being used as opposed to the weapon's stats

I dont want jump sniping ELIMINATED. But I feel jump jets need to be altered so its not as prevalent. Jump sniping emphasizes the strengths of balistics without the weaknesses.

[Dock Steward]

Varent, on 07 January 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

I dont want jump sniping ELIMINATED. But I feel jump jets need to be altered so its not as prevalent. Jump sniping emphasizes the strengths of balistics without the weaknesses.

Why is that the Jump Jet's fault?

[Varent]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Why is that the Jump Jet's fault?

did you read my post? Because jump jets emphasize the strengths of balistics without the weaknesses.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 07 January 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

I dont want jump sniping ELIMINATED. But I feel jump jets need to be altered so its not as prevalent. Jump sniping emphasizes the strengths of balistics without the weaknesses.

With the slower trajectory speeds on the two bigger calibers now I think that might be mitigated though. Again, on that front I'm reserving judgement until I see how it works in game

[Dock Steward]

Varent, on 07 January 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

did you read my post? Because jump jets emphasize the strengths of balistics without the weaknesses.

Right, but the sentence before that you said you wanted to nerf the jump jets because of it. AC/40 Jagers emphasize the strengths of pin-point damage, but few people believe it's a good idea to nerf the Jager outright. Usually people nerf the thing causing the problem, not the thing that brings the problem to light.

Edited by Dock Steward, 07 January 2014 - 04:05 PM.

[Sandpit]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

Right, but the sentence before that you said you wanted to nerf the jump jets because of it. AC/40 Jagers emphasize the strengths of pin-point damage, but few people believe it's a good idea to nerf the Jager outright. Usually people nerf the thing causing the problem, not the thing that brings the problem to light.

Well since there's only 2 known variants (that I can think of, correct me if I'm wrong) that means you could eliminate that "broken" part by nerfing the K2 and Jagers. Then no more AC40s but I see your point. I don't see where Varent said nerf JJs though?

[Dock Steward]

Sandpit, on 07 January 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Well since there's only 2 known variants (that I can think of, correct me if I'm wrong) that means you could eliminate that "broken" part by nerfing the K2 and Jagers. Then no more AC40s but I see your point. I don't see where Varent said nerf JJs though?

You're right. He said "altered." I took that to mean nerf, which probably wasn't fair of me. Though that might just be semantics depending on what he had in mind specifically.

[Sandpit]

Dock Steward, on 07 January 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Though that might just be semantics depending on what he had in mind specifically.

With as many "debates" as I've had over the definitions in this thread alone? lol I can relate