1080 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

A crack shot will do it 3 times and still be rewarded.

An average shot will hit the side torso next, then the leg, then the arm, and not be rewarded.

[YueFei]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

using an example just from what most people complain about, the ac20 jager. This mech has an alpha that will not outright cripple any mech with the exception of some lights and even then only if the hit is very lucky. That said I would not call that overpowering in any way. If you get caught out in the open or go around an unprotected corner you deserve to die. Period.

I have no complaints about the AC/40 Jager. Doesn't change the fact that some people want mechs to live longer, and that desire is largely a matter of taste. You could make the weapons deal 100 damage per shot, and this would still be a game of skill. But most people would find the TTK absurdly short.

You can increase the TTK, without increasing it by stupidly large amounts (as in, mechs take so long to kill that it ALWAYS devolves into a brawl because nobody can kill or cripple someone at long or medium range). I would say it increases the skill cap. If I only need to land 3 hits to kill someone, there's a better chance I can get lucky. I'm a lot less likely to get lucky if I have to land 5 hits to take someone out.

Anyway, they could possibly introduce an "arcade mode" for people who just want to blast away at things mindlessly and relieve stress, where EVERYONE has 300% health (and reduced C-bill rewards for this game mode), LOL. Then everyone will be happy.

[Varent]

I could see a special mode where this was increased... perhaps gladiator of solaris match where weapons are dubbed down to make them last longer or some such. Could be interesting to satisfy multiple crowds while not taking away from the game others like

[YueFei]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Why shouldn't lights fear large scale alpha? Isnt that part of being light pilot.

Where did I say that Lights shouldn't fear them? Why are you trying to pick arguments with me that I didn't even make? Please read my posts more carefully. I have no problem with Light mechs being swatted by those kinds of hits. I was just disagreeing with the guy who said LBX is better against Light mechs than AC10. I'm saying AC10 / AC20 is better at killing Light mechs. (And the AC/20 being good at killing Light mechs is something you yourself have espoused!)

[YueFei]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

I could see a special mode where this was increased... perhaps gladiator of solaris match where weapons are dubbed down to make them last longer or some such. Could be interesting to satisfy multiple crowds while not taking away from the game others like

Would also be interesting if they added extra equipment like [Modular Armor], 1 ton / 1 crit. And [Shields], which would give mechs with a lower arm actuator and hand actuator something they can equip that other mechs can't. Something for those players who want to make bigger tradeoffs in less speed/firepower in order to have more armor. Then hey, if you want to live longer, just equip that stuff!

[dwwolf]

Biggest flaw with all direct fire weapons is the potential for pinpoint damage. We need shot dispersion, badly.

[Khobai]

Quote

I have no complaints about the AC/40 Jager. Doesn't change the fact that some people want mechs to live longer, and that desire is largely a matter of taste

Its a well known fact that mechs die significantly faster in MWO compared to Battletech as a direct result of precise aiming. I really cant see how making MWO resemble Battletech more is a bad thing. The best way to get there is a combination of a damage spread mechanism and internal structure buff.

Another option might be to add area cover bonuses to the game. For example, Battletech gave you cover bonuses for standing in light or heavy woods. It would certainly help increase time to kill if MWO emulated that by giving you damage reduction bonuses while standing in cover. It would also make movement much more tactical, especially if combined with movement penalties for moving through certain terrain (forests would slow you down but also protect you, and water would slow you down considerably). There should be a lot more tactical throught involved in movement; it should be important to consider what type of terrain youre moving through and whether the defensive bonus is worth the speed hit or not.

It would also be nice if PGI added "hardened armor" as well to give players the option to play a more tanky mech at the expense of additional tonnage, speed, and stability. Right now if you want to play something that can tank, your best bet is a light mech, which is pathetic... assaults shouldnt have to cower behind rocks in fear of being shredded by ballistics. Thats NOT battletech.

Hardened armor could also help balance IS and Clans since Clans cant use hardened armor. Allowing IS access to Hardened armor is a way better balancing mechanic than forcing clan mechs to use their base armor and engine values, which makes many clan mechs dead on arrival.

I think hardened armor would be fairly balanced at +20% damage reduction, -20% armor points per ton, -10% max speed/turning speed, and a stability penalty (once knockdowns are readded). Additionally, certain weapons/ammo types could be classed as armor piercing and would partially ignore the damage reduction. Those should be sufficient enough downsides to balance hardened armor.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2014 - 04:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 09 January 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

Its a well known fact that mechs die significantly faster in MWO compared to Battletech as a direct result of precise aiming. I really cant see how making MWO resemble Battletech more is a bad thing. The best way to get there is a combination of a damage spread mechanism and internal structure buff.

Another option might be to add area cover bonuses to the game. For example, Battletech gave you cover bonuses for standing in light or heavy woods. It would certainly help increase time to kill if MWO emulated that by giving you damage reduction bonuses while standing in cover. It would also make movement much more tactical, especially if combined with movement penalties for moving through certain terrain (forests would slow you down but also protect you, and water would slow you down considerably). There should be a lot more tactical throught involved in movement; it should be important to consider what type of terrain youre moving through and whether the defensive bonus is worth the speed hit or not.

It would also be nice if PGI added "hardened armor" as well to give players the option to play a more tanky mech at the expense of additional tonnage, speed, and stability. Right now if you want to play something that can tank, your best bet is a light mech, which is pathetic... assaults shouldnt have to cower behind rocks in fear of being shredded by ballistics. Thats NOT battletech.

Hardened armor could also help balance IS and Clans since Clans cant use hardened armor. Allowing IS access to Hardened armor is a way better balancing mechanic than forcing clan mechs to use their base armor and engine values, which makes many clan mechs dead on arrival.

I think hardened armor would be fairly balanced at +20% damage reduction, -20% armor points per ton, -10% max speed/turning speed, and a stability penalty (once knockdowns are readded). Additionally, certain weapons/ammo types could be classed as armor piercing and would partially ignore the damage reduction. Those should be sufficient enough downsides to balance hardened armor.

This is wrong. It seems to be true, but I have only died in 20-30 seconds under massed fire by 3 or more Mechs. 30 seconds is 3 Turns and under my TT arsenal most Mechs died in 3 turns of fire. So my experience is opposed to your offering.

If you didn't use Cover on TT you weren't playing BattleTech. I have many games where I stood in a heavy woods hex with a Light woods in front of that so I made it as hard to be hit as if I had run (harder since that much brush made me untargetable!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 January 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[Cimarb]

YueFei, on 08 January 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

I gotta disagree with this, I've been driving Jenners for a while now, and while sandpaper weapons like LBX, lasers, and missiles will eventually kill me, they don't inspire the same kind of fear that single-hit weapons do. Those other weapons wear me down gradually, but it gives me time to assess the damage I'm taking, and time to disengage (after tossing a few shots of my own too). The instant-hit weapons can kill me in a single hit, and whether I get hit or not isn't something I can control, since I can't reactively see the projectile and dodge it, only jink violently and hope the other guy misses. Most of the time people miss, but there are crack shots (or lucky shots) who've killed or crippled me in a single shot. Taking a hit like that is catastrophic.

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

using an example just from what most people complain about, the ac20 jager. This mech has an alpha that will not outright cripple any mech with the exception of some lights and even then only if the hit is very lucky. That said I would not call that overpowering in any way. If you get caught out in the open or go around an unprotected corner you deserve to die. Period.

The main thing you are dismissing, Varent, is the lucky shot part of his comment. That is my issue too. I'm not upset that someone gets a skilled shot on me. It's the lucky shot that blows off my leg while running 150kph at hundreds of meters away that upsets me. Granted, it's hilarious when I do it in return, especially to a spider, but that doesn't mean it's right in either situation or has anything to do with skill. (Yes, I know, yours is all skill and we suck, I get it, but I'm talking about the rest of us mortals that have been destroyed before).

You also make all of your arguments based upon the assumption of fresh armor. Very rarely are you going to have completely fresh armor, especially when you are already within range of an AC40 mech. A 40-point hit to one hit box on any light is crippling 95% of the time.

[mania3c]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

The main thing you are dismissing, Varent, is the lucky shot part of his comment. That is my issue too. I'm not upset that someone gets a skilled shot on me. It's the lucky shot that blows off my leg while running 150kph at hundreds of meters away that upsets me. Granted, it's hilarious when I do it in return, especially to a spider, but that doesn't mean it's right in either situation or has anything to do with skill. (Yes, I know, yours is all skill and we suck, I get it, but I'm talking about the rest of us mortals that have been destroyed before).

You also make all of your arguments based upon the assumption of fresh armor. Very rarely are you going to have completely fresh armor, especially when you are already within range of an AC40 mech. A 40-point hit to one hit box on any light is crippling 95% of the time.

Why it's bad? it;s not like it's happening every match.. I have my own collection of lucky shots... and IMHO..this is making the game pretty interesting.. it sucks if you are unlucky one..it makes you happy if you are on other side..and it's okay..

few days ago I got headshot ..by airstrike.. do you think I was angry? noo...it was hilarious ..i was shocked, than laughed .. wrote him "you lucky *******, well played " and moved on.. as long as these "lucky shots" are pretty rare, it's good and it's spice of the game

(I have hundreds of matches with my cicada ..and I need fingers on one hand to count how many times I was unlucky one.),

Edited by mania3c, 09 January 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

The main thing you are dismissing, Varent, is the lucky shot part of his comment. That is my issue too. I'm not upset that someone gets a skilled shot on me. It's the lucky shot that blows off my leg while running 150kph at hundreds of meters away that upsets me. Granted, it's hilarious when I do it in return, especially to a spider, but that doesn't mean it's right in either situation or has anything to do with skill. (Yes, I know, yours is all skill and we suck, I get it, but I'm talking about the rest of us mortals that have been destroyed before).

You also make all of your arguments based upon the assumption of fresh armor. Very rarely are you going to have completely fresh armor, especially when you are already within range of an AC40 mech. A 40-point hit to one hit box on any light is crippling 95% of the time.

I would agree on the last note, but I must still say I feel that is how the game should be. I will admit that is purely opinion but to me it has a correct mechwarrior feel with the current system. When you are fresh as a light mech its not a death sentence. When you are a little beaten up your heart starts racing and you should worry about turning corners more. It gives light mech pilots a reason to play more cautiously and focus more on there role as scouts. I do think this will improve with the onset of CW but either way we will see I suppose.

I feel there are always lucky shots and there should be them out there. Its what players talk and laugh about and to take away the concept of them would make the game abit stale. It may not be something you like while piloting a light mech but even you just admited you laugh when you see it happen to another. Its chuckle worthy. Just as an example I was piloting a locust last night and was one shot in the first minute of the game. I came around a corner and caught an alpha from 2 mechs and died instantly. I could have instantly raged and thrown my arms up but instead I chuckled and said to myself, "I guess thats what I get for going around that corner to fast without stopping to check my seismic." Its all part of the game I feel. If you play smart usually those things dont happen and when they do and they are luck just understand its not going to happen all the time.

[Khobai]

Quote

This is wrong. It seems to be true, but I have only died in 20-30 seconds under massed fire by 3 or more Mechs. 30 seconds is 3 Turns and under my TT arsenal most Mechs died in 3 turns of fire. So my experience is opposed to your offering.

Its not wrong. TT requires you to roll to hit the target. So generally half or more of your shots miss just due to dice rolling in TT. Where all your shots automatically hit in MWO if your aim is good. So accuracy is much higher in MWO. Additionally TT has random hit locations while MWO has aiming. So precision is much higher in MWO as well. The combination of better accuracy and better precision means youll always kill mechs faster in MWO. And lets not forget the rate of fire is also three times faster in MWO as well. Double armor doesnt cancel out triple rate of fire, let alone triple rate of fire plus better accuracy and precision of weapons.

In MWO, my Jagermech/Cataphract builds can solo Atlases in 15-20 seconds. We arnt talking about 3 mechs. Thats 1 mech. Four AC/5s do 13.32 dps. Atlas has 160-170 armor+internals on its center torso. Under ideal circumstances it cores Atlases in 12 seconds. But since my aims not 100% perfect and Atlases often torso twist, it usually takes closer to 15-20 seconds to core them. That's the absurdity of ballistics and why they need to be nerfed so badly.

Quote

If you didn't use Cover on TT you weren't playing BattleTech. I have many games where I stood in a heavy woods hex with a Light woods in front of that so I made it as hard to be hit as if I had run (harder since that much brush made me untargetable!

That was my point. Cover was such a crucial part of TT that I feel it should be represented somehow in MWO. If youre standing in a forest in MWO you should get damage reduction, but you should also walk slower through forests.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

The main thing you are dismissing, Varent, is the lucky shot part of his comment. That is my issue too. I'm not upset that someone gets a skilled shot on me. It's the lucky shot that blows off my leg while running 150kph at hundreds of meters away that upsets me. Granted, it's hilarious when I do it in return, especially to a spider, but that doesn't mean it's right in either situation or has anything to do with skill. (Yes, I know, yours is all skill and we suck, I get it, but I'm talking about the rest of us mortals that have been destroyed before).

You also make all of your arguments based upon the assumption of fresh armor. Very rarely are you going to have completely fresh armor, especially when you are already within range of an AC40 mech. A 40-point hit to one hit box on any light is crippling 95% of the time.

As we have double armor that 40 hits with all the thunder and heartache as a 20 point pop on TT. One AC20 hit ruined a Light 'Mech's day. Try adding in the fun of physical combat and watching a pristine Wasp Leg disappear when I was kicked by a Griffin! Fragility is a part of being a Light 'Mech accept it. It's like saying we need to Buff Assaults cause they are to slow! The biggest heaviest units in the game are Slow and the lightest are Fragile? The Hel you say!

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

I would agree on the last note, but I must still say I feel that is how the game should be. I will admit that is purely opinion but to me it has a correct mechwarrior feel with the current system. When you are fresh as a light mech its not a death sentence. When you are a little beaten up your heart starts racing and you should worry about turning corners more. It gives light mech pilots a reason to play more cautiously and focus more on there role as scouts. I do think this will improve with the onset of CW but either way we will see I suppose.

I feel there are always lucky shots and there should be them out there. Its what players talk and laugh about and to take away the concept of them would make the game abit stale. It may not be something you like while piloting a light mech but even you just admited you laugh when you see it happen to another. Its chuckle worthy. Just as an example I was piloting a locust last night and was one shot in the first minute of the game. I came around a corner and caught an alpha from 2 mechs and died instantly. I could have instantly raged and thrown my arms up but instead I chuckled and said to myself, "I guess thats what I get for going around that corner to fast without stopping to check my seismic." Its all part of the game I feel. If you play smart usually those things dont happen and when they do and they are luck just understand its not going to happen all the time.

One of my favorite moments in the game so far was when I got a headshot on my first lob with a Gauss rifle from the opposite end of frozen valley. I wasn't even using zoom (it was before that was useful) and there was absolutely ZERO skill involved; it was absolute, pure luck. It must have been a crit and they must have reduced their head armor to have let it get through, but the shot was glorious because of all those factors. He was very cool about it, because we both knew it was just dumb luck.

I'm not saying lucky shots shouldn't happen, but a stray AC20 shot can ruin your game quickly regardless of how much skill you have. I am supportive of several of the suggestions Sandpit has given, and just want to test some of them out, but it would be nice if the same concession was made from your side of things. Front-loaded damage is far too prevalent currently, which is why we have so many ballistics and PPCs in matches currently.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

One of my favorite moments in the game so far was when I got a headshot on my first lob with a Gauss rifle from the opposite end of frozen valley. I wasn't even using zoom (it was before that was useful) and there was absolutely ZERO skill involved; it was absolute, pure luck. It must have been a crit and they must have reduced their head armor to have let it get through, but the shot was glorious because of all those factors. He was very cool about it, because we both knew it was just dumb luck.

I'm not saying lucky shots shouldn't happen, but a stray AC20 shot can ruin your game quickly regardless of how much skill you have. I am supportive of several of the suggestions Sandpit has given, and just want to test some of them out, but it would be nice if the same concession was made from your side of things. Front-loaded damage is far too prevalent currently, which is why we have so many ballistics and PPCs in matches currently.

I dont agree that it is. Mostly because I feel the main culprit is jump sniping. But I also have said I would love to test it I think.. 3 or 4 times now? c.c I already have added sandpit in game. I think I sent you one too *cant remember* should just get together in a lance and test it in a corner. My guild currently is doing alot of testing with srm hit reg actually....

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I dont agree that it is. Mostly because I feel the main culprit is jump sniping. But I also have said I would love to test it I think.. 3 or 4 times now? c.c I already have added sandpit in game. I think I sent you one too *cant remember* should just get together in a lance and test it in a corner. My guild currently is doing alot of testing with srm hit reg actually....

Removing front-loaded damage would fix your main culprit as well, since it is the root problem with jump sniping.

Nothing personal, but I don't do social in game. It's also why I'm not in a unit. Even if I did, there is no way to test these changes we are talking about until PGI implements them live or on the test server and I don't think dueling proves anything.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Removing front-loaded damage would fix your main culprit as well, since it is the root problem with jump sniping.

Nothing personal, but I don't do social in game. It's also why I'm not in a unit. Even if I did, there is no way to test these changes we are talking about until PGI implements them live or on the test server and I don't think dueling proves anything.

You can create scenarios. For example test firing srm at different positons, in different volley types, alphas chain, etc. Just as a way we are testing srm.

For this you could test the effectiveness of heat vs pilot vs weight vs overall mech chasis size and setup some situations. Thats my own thought.

I just feel removing front load damage only really changes things for the light mechs. Who I feel dont need that buff. Mediums/heavies/assaults work just fine with this and can fight effectively with other weapons. Jump sniping on the other hand changing that would make a good effect to the overall game.

[Khobai]

Quote

I dont agree that it is. Mostly because I feel the main culprit is jump sniping.

Its not. When players jump snipe with lasers its not overpowered. Its when they jump snipe with PPCs that its a problem. Jump sniping is a symptom of pinpoint alpha, not the other way around.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 09 January 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Its not. When players jump snipe with lasers its not overpowered. Its when they jump snipe with PPCs that its a problem. Jump sniping is a symptom of pinpoint alpha, not the other way around.

except you can still use jump sniping with lasers and balistics to continue to mix max risk reward for weapons and move through terrain without issue. It might not be 'as effective' but it would still be a major issue. High alpha weapons only show prominence because the heat they incur can be negated by use of terrain that jump jets provide. Put them toe to toe with heat efficient highly damaging srm using mechs or even medium laser and machine guns or spread damage ac like the ac2/uac5 and they are cooked alive in very short order.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 09 January 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Its not wrong. TT requires you to roll to hit the target. So generally half or more of your shots miss just due to dice rolling in TT. Where all your shots automatically hit in MWO if your aim is good. So accuracy is much higher in MWO. Additionally TT has random hit locations while MWO has aiming. So precision is much higher in MWO as well. The combination of better accuracy and better precision means youll always kill mechs faster in MWO. And lets not forget the rate of fire is also three times faster in MWO as well. Double armor doesnt cancel out triple rate of fire, let alone triple rate of fire plus better accuracy and precision of weapons.

In MWO, my Jagermech/Cataphract builds can solo Atlases in 15-20 seconds. We arnt talking about 3 mechs. Thats 1 mech. Four AC/5s do 13.32 dps. Atlas has 160-170 armor+internals on its center torso. Under ideal circumstances it cores Atlases in 12 seconds. But since my aims not 100% perfect and Atlases often torso twist, it usually takes closer to 15-20 seconds to core them. That's the absurdity of ballistics and why they need to be nerfed so badly.

I guess or Mileage will vary Khob. I had plenty of Assaults that could and did core mediums and light in as few as 3 turns, and if they were not cored they were left in very sad shape. 30 seconds to ruin a 'Mech's ability to wage war. As much as you say "dice" I can say 6,7 & 8 were the most common rolls. *Shrug*

Quote

That was my point. Cover was such a crucial part of TT that I feel it should be represented somehow in MWO. If youre standing in a forest in MWO you should get damage reduction, but you should also walk slower through forests.

Damage reduction could work if the woods were heavy enough.