1080 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 10 January 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well, less damage because it was concentrated on the panel and you would normally kill them faster. My SRM mech can get 4-800 damage and no kills if allies take advantage of the holes it punches, but cant target. My ballistics have gotten kills much less effort, since you can target whatever weak point is available. Admittedly, no artemis so I can't comment on SRM+A.

Although I've had 500 plus runs with MGs and LPLs, while not a high score, was very fun to play in. Play styles will affect how the weapons work.

I.... I feel I need to show you the way young padwan... use artemis... use the artemis luke.. it is your only hope....

It turns a spread of a soccer ball into a spread of about a ppc blast in close range or about an lbx burst at 200ish meters.

Its sexy.

Edited by Varent, 10 January 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 10 January 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

I.... I feel I need to show you the way young padwan... use artemis... use the artemis luke.. it is your only hope....

It turns a spread of a soccer ball into a spread of about a ppc blast in close range or about an lbx burst at 200ish meters.

Its sexy.

Well, I did use it months ago on the Cent, either SRM+A 12-18 and it was fairly effective, even at 2.0 damage. Even better is that they all launched from the same place, so the spread was even smaller compared to the SRM22 Shadowhawk.

You're making me want to buy it again...

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 10 January 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Well, I did use it months ago on the Cent, either SRM+A 12-18 and it was fairly effective, even at 2.0 damage. Even better is that they all launched from the same place, so the spread was even smaller compared to the SRM22 Shadowhawk.

You're making me want to buy it again...

Honestly having used regular srm and then used artemis I cant imagine going back. Its what makes them effective. A nice solid cone of death that does 12 damage to a nice specific area at 200 meters. Weithing only 4 tons and doing the heat of a medium laser?

all I can say is, YES.

I mean honestly this is why I dont get the whole argument of AC20 is op... when 2 srm 6 with artemis... weight less, take up less slots, have more ammo and at close in ranges are equally effective with less heat.

And you want to argue that your ac20 will beat me? (hit registration pending)

I laugh at you good sir....

Its also why I dont see the ac20 as a problem for anything but lights, and with that in mind feel its in a good place.

Edited by Varent, 10 January 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Khobai]

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I mean honestly this is why I dont get the whole argument of AC20 is op... when 2 srm 6 with artemis... weight less, take up less slots, have more ammo and at close in ranges are equally effective with less heat.

The AC20 by itself isnt overpowered. The AC20 only starts to become overpowered when you have two of them. Thats 40 pinpoint damage. SRMs dont even come close to that.

Plus SRMs are limited to 270m range which means all you have to do is stay outside 270m... which isnt hard when most other weapons do damage out to 540m. I dont think ive been killed once by SRMs since they were nerfed. They just arnt good weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 10 January 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Sandpit]

lockwoodx, on 10 January 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Customers providing "Feedback" is a lot better than regulars posting flame bait followed by ninja masks.

I feel like Jesse James or Wild Bill sometimes. Every young gun out there wants to make a name by trying to take a shot at me when I post a snarky remark once in a while after offering several pages of constructive conversation....

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

The AC20 by itself isnt overpowered. The AC20 is overpowered because you can have two of them. Thats 40 pinpoint damage. SRMs dont even come close to that.

Most "op" threads come about because someone got rolled by a specific weapon being fired in a coordinated effort by a decent team working together. AC20 is fearsome. Getting hit by 2, 3, or 4 at once? Your mech melts. That's why I usually argue about the whole "op" thing. If a single weapon is not "op" then it doesn't magically become "op" just because you got hit by a few of them

[Varent]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

The AC20 by itself isnt overpowered. The AC20 is overpowered because you can have two of them. Thats 40 pinpoint damage. SRMs dont even come close to that.

I can run 4 srm 6 (48 damage, 8 more then 2 ac20 with just that alone) on a jager chasis plus 2 large laser and be heat efficient at the same ranges and do just as much damage if not more. I can also fit 2 machine gun on that chasis for extra crits and more general dps. I will also be moving at the same speed.

More fireplower, just as much precision in close. More crits, Better supression at range with the large laser and same speed and armor.

But ya ac20 op.... right....

[Varent]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Not to one location you cant.

2srm6 (with artemis) on either arm. that is 24 damage per arm. That is more damage then an ac20 at the same optimal range for less head less weight and less slots. also you get more shots per ton.

[Khobai]

Quote

2srm6 (with artemis) on either arm. that is 24 damage per arm. That is more damage then an ac20 at the same optimal range for less head less weight and less slots. also you get more shots per ton.

But it doesnt all go into the same location. SRMs spread out.

Damage is not what kills mechs. Precision is. And AC/20s have far more precision than SRMs. Thats just a fact. Also youre not doing 24 damage per arm, because SRMs have severe hit registration issues, which PGI themselves have admitted.

Players want to win. Players will do everything they can to help them win. If using SRMs helped them win they would be using SRMs. The fact theyre not using SRMs is fairly telling.

Edited by Khobai, 10 January 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

But it doesnt all go into the same location. SRMs spread out.

Damage is not what kills mechs. Precision is. And AC/20s have far more precision than SRMs. Thats just a fact.

at 200 meters, im willing to guarantee you I will get my srm into the same spot I would be getting my ac20. Also I dont need absolute precision when I can spam fire my srm6 with constant torso shake added to you and not overheating while you are struggling to hit me with an ac20 while your screen is going wild.

Try it sometime. If you win vs a mech doing this, my hats off to you good sir. Personally going up against those types of mechs is what made me realize the invalidity of the ac40 jager. It cant survive to people that are actually smart. Its a noob killer.

[Khobai]

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at 200 meters, im willing to guarantee you I will get my srm into the same spot I would be getting my ac20.

Maybe on an Atlas or equally large assault thats standing still and facing directly towards you. On any other mech you will not hit in the same spot.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Maybe on an Atlas or equally large assault thats standing still and facing directly towards you. On any other mech you will not hit in the same spot.

The only mech I wont hit all in the 'roughly' same spot would be a light mech or a particularly small medium, like the black jack or the cicada. Keep in ming im aiming for a right or left torso usually, those are large areas that are pretty easy to hit. And most Center torso are even larger.

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 January 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

Neither example is shown being fired. Nor how accurate they are when firing multiples at a single target.

Words like more accurate is fuzzy enough to mean many things where the military is concerned.

Not sure how an example of it being fired is relevant. GPS guided munitions have been around since the 80's. by around i mean deployed for use not still in R&D. The systems are as accurate as the gps so a few metes. suficant for 80mm motors and overkill for 150MM artillery. Not sure a call for citation is needed.A

A word like accuracy is only fuzzy to people who dont know the difference between accuracy and precision. it's common to use accuracy when they really mean precision and accuracy. since both are needed to hit what your intending.

My examples are for balancing out expectations for BT's High tech ness nature for precision weapons systems.

[Khobai]

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at 200 meters, im willing to guarantee you I will get my srm into the same spot I would be getting my ac20.

This is me firing four SRM6s with Artemis at an Awesome 200m away. The SRM6s clearly do not all hit the same location.



And this is dual AC20s.

Edited by Khobai, 10 January 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

This is me firing four SRM6s with Artemis at an Awesome 200m away. The SRM6s clearly do not all hit the same location.

your aim is low, you are not zoomed in, you also are taking a bad angle on it and at that angle will spread to the center torso.

Adjust your aim up and slightly to the left, you will clear the arm and get all right torso. Im at work not or else I would post a screen shot as well. That said even if you miss with half of the missles your also not taking into account the machine gun or lasers

All for still LESS WEIGHT and size and ammo.

Edit.

Btw if that was all one salvo im really not sure how you missed that badly unless you literally moved the arms around while firing. Artemis is dependent on a steady hand.

Edited by Varent, 10 January 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[WarHippy]

Khobai, on 09 January 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

cone of fire is another system I really cant see PGI ever coding into the game...

I think the best we can hope for is simple fixes... like more internal structure or autocannons firing more rapidly to spread damage better.

Even though I would rather see autocannons remain as a single hard hitting projectile the only real problem I have with making them burst fire to spread the damage is what it will be like getting hit by them. Can you imagine how annoying it would be to have someone chain fire 3 or 4 ac5s that fire a burst of 5 1dmg projectiles? The screen shake and noise would be enough to drive you insane. That being said...

I really like Mallen's idea of individual weapons being accurate and grouped weapons causing some form of cone of fire, which in turn could give pinpoint talent and targeting computers real value in this game.

[Khobai]

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your aim is low, you are not zoomed in, you also are taking a bad angle on it and at that angle will spread to the center torso.

Zoomed in? If you have to zoom in at 200m you need to get your eyes checked. If my aim was low how did the majority of damage hit the CT? And how is directly in front of the Awesome a bad angle? And I would hope most of the damage spread to the CT since thats where I was aiming.

Quote

Btw if that was all one salvo im really not sure how you missed that badly unless you literally moved the arms around while firing. Artemis is dependent on a steady hand.

Because SRMs spread out. No one can fire SRMs at 200m and have them all hit the same location. I challenge anyone here to do it. But I can do it every time with AC/20s.

There is a reason people use AC/20s and not SRMs. If SRMs were as good as you claim then everyone would use them.

Edited by Khobai, 10 January 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

If my aim was low how did the majority of damage hit the CT? And how is directly in front of the Awesome a bad angle? And I would hope most of the damage spread to the CT since thats where I was aiming.

I have no idea how it spread that much unless it was literally like 1-2 missles sliding off in a few spots. However you also are mounting torso mounted SRM in 2 different areas wich tend to have some conversion issues as well. Try using a jager with them all in the arms or try using 3 srm in one torso side, or like the new griggen that can mount 4 in one torso side, Then all generall fire in alot tighter of a grouping like that.

Ill test it when I get home and toss out some screen caps.

[Mawai]

Varent, on 10 January 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

The only mech I wont hit all in the 'roughly' same spot would be a light mech or a particularly small medium, like the black jack or the cicada. Keep in ming im aiming for a right or left torso usually, those are large areas that are pretty easy to hit. And most Center torso are even larger.

You can always go test your hypothesis. Take an AC40 Jaeger to the testing grounds. How many shots does it take to kill the target and how many mech sections are damaged ... then do the same thing with 4xASRM6 (You can even use the same mech). How many armor sections are damaged and which kills the mech faster?

So ... since I have my own jm6-a ... here are the results .. testing grounds .. forest colony snow ... 200m from target ... center torso target from front to keep things simple ...

Commando
AC40 - one shot kill
4ASRM6 - 2 shots - one volley - 7 total ASRM6 - first volley damaged 6 separate mech sections

Cicada
AC40 - 2 shots - 3 rounds total
4ASRM6 - 3 shots - 9 total ASRM6 - 7 mech segments damaged in first shot

Catapult
AC40 - 3 shots - 5 rounds total
4ASRM6 - 4 shots - 15 volleys total

Centurion
AC40 - 2 shots - 4 rounds total
4ASRM6 - 3 shots - 10 volleys total

So ... overall the 4ASRM6 is not as effective at killing opponents as the AC40 since although the damage potential is higher that damage is distributed over more of the mech so it does not kill the opponent as efficiently.




Now to test another popular hypothesis ... are SRMs more effective fired one by one?

4ASRM6 fired at Catapult LA from 200m - damage was distributed over 5 mech segments - head,ct,lt, rt. la
4 shots - 13 total volleys required to blow off LA
Fired individually 13 volleys required to blow up RA

Atlas
4xASRM6
3x4ASRM6 volleys through LT armor - total 20 volleys to blow off arm

ASRM6
Total 20 ASRM6 individual volleys to blow off the other arm.

So .. at least in the testing grounds ... a single ASRM6 does the same damage whether fired separately or together. (as it should).

[Joseph Mallan]

Tombstoner, on 10 January 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Not sure how an example of it being fired is relevant. GPS guided munitions have been around since the 80's. by around i mean deployed for use not still in R&D. The systems are as accurate as the gps so a few meters. suficant for 80mm motors and overkill for 150MM artillery. Not sure a call for citation is needed.A

A word like accuracy is only fuzzy to people who dont know the difference between accuracy and precision. it's common to use accuracy when they really mean precision and accuracy. since both are needed to hit what your intending.

My examples are for balancing out expectations for BT's High tech ness nature for precision weapons systems.

So the GPS is good enough to miss the Target Mech by more than 7'-10'? A few Meters not a couple centimeters, which is how accurate our games targeting is. Accurate to with in 6 feet is the difference of left and right torso or left leg and right arm! Artillery is an area affect weapon so I would certainly hope a few feet left or right would be fine.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 10 January 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

The AC20 by itself isnt overpowered. The AC20 only starts to become overpowered when you have two of them. Thats 40 pinpoint damage. SRMs dont even come close to that.

Plus SRMs are limited to 270m range which means all you have to do is stay outside 270m... which isnt hard when most other weapons do damage out to 540m. I dont think ive been killed once by SRMs since they were nerfed. They just arnt good weapons.

You know how I feel about the whole 40 MW:O damage being to much issue. You are hitting double the armor with double the damage so a double AC20 is just as powerful as a single TT AC20. Three salvos are required to plow through an Atlas CT either way.

Now I do agree that with that much recoil those twin ACs should not be as capable of hitting the same location. Not impossible, but not easy.